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In this episode of LeadWell with Jacqui, I’m joined by Amanda Jones, founder and director of Leadership Shapers, for a dynamic conversation about the powerful intersection of mentorship and leadership. Together, we unpack the essential qualities of effective mentors, including emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and the courage it takes to navigate meaningful mentoring relationships.
Whether you’re a leader looking to expand your influence through mentoring or a mentee seeking growth, this episode is packed with actionable insights and inspiration to help you embrace mentorship as a powerful tool for personal and professional development.
About Amanda Jones
Amanda is an Executive Coach, Facilitator and Chartered Accountant, with a background in corporate restructuring, commercial management and consulting. Her experience includes functional roles (operational and financial), strategic project management, large-scale sale transactions, and design and implementation of culture and change initiatives. Amanda has worked across a diverse range of industries, from finance and legal to sport, government (and much more).
Evolving her corporate experience into founding and running her own business, Amanda brings passion, energy and a knack for helping her clients see challenges in a new light that inspires action and drives positive change.
Amanda’s vision is to shape leadership by promoting and developing ‘mentoring as a culture’, working with her clients to connect them to their potential.
Connect with Amanda:
LinkedIn: Leadership Shapers
Instagram: @leadershipshapers
Mentioned in this episode:
Discover your mentoring style - The first 10 listeners to complete the assessment will receive a FREE profile from Leadership Shapers!
Transcript:
Jacqui Butler (00:00)
Are you a mentor or would you like to be? Perhaps you're keen to have a mentor and aren't sure where to start. Well, start here. Welcome to today's episode of LeadWell with Jacqui, where we are talking all things mentorship. I am joined by Amanda Jones, founder and director of Leadership Shapers. Amanda has taken her background in corporate restructuring, commercial management and consulting, and channeled that experience into her work as an executive coach and facilitator, whose vision is to shape leadership by promoting and developing mentoring as a culture. I am very excited to dive straight in and welcome the wonderful Amanda.
Amanda Jones (00:41)
Hello, thank you for having me.
Jacqui Butler (00:43)
Thank you for being here. Now I have done a little bit of an introduction, but I would love to invite you to introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Amanda Jones (00:54)
Well, I think you've hit all of the big ticket items in terms of rear side of it, adding to it that I'm a mother of three and I think that that's also a very critical role and lots of life skills and leadership skills that we can draw from that. And yeah, as you said, founded Leadership Shapers and what we do is we help leaders, teams and organisations to thrive, very much through, as you said, that idea of focusing on the mentoring, also leadership capabilities. And I think probably the other piece that I'd love to add in is just the focus around emotional intelligence because I've really kind of incorporated that into all the aspects of what I do, how I do it, because of that direct connection to getting those performance outcomes. So I think being able to focus on that as leaders and mentors is really critical.
Jacqui Butler (01:54)
Absolutely. I always say, people say - actually I was out on the weekend and someone was like, “You know, they just need to leave emotion out of it.” And I was like, well, it's funny you say that because I really strongly believe that if you're dealing with people, regardless of in what type of interaction, then emotional intelligence is critical for success, or it's going to at least determine your success, right?
Amanda Jones (02:04)
Hopefully. Yes, yes. So yeah, if you want to leave emotions out of it, then we're also leaving the people out of it.
Jacqui Butler (02:27)
So today we're talking about mentorship in particular, which is what I find to be a really interesting topic, because I do feel as though a lot of leaders kind of feel as though they are already mentors, and I think it's a really good opportunity for us to lean in and to get a bit more granular on what does that look like, what behaviors and traits does that entail and how can you be the best mentor that you can be, and I do prepare for these podcasts, and I did a little bit of research and I found some really interesting stats. Companies that have mentoring programs have better profits than those that don't. People who have a mentor are happier at their current jobs. And so then you get improved engagement, staff attention, discretionary effort, all of the benefits. And mentoring is now number four on the list of learning and development strategies that L&D teams consider, which is actually really high and apparently higher since COVID.
Amanda Jones (03:39)
Hmm. And while we're talking statistics, I've got a few more just to actually put some numbers around that, but that whole engagement piece. So mentored employees are 84 percent more engaged than those who aren't, which is huge. And then another one, which I think is really compelling is that employees who participate in mentoring programs are five times more likely to be promoted than those that don't. And yet again, there is definitely that bottom line impact, which makes sense because another stat, so 67 percent of businesses reported an increase in productivity due to mentoring programs. So I think the evidence is well and truly there. And stats aside, I think that it's one of those things that people intuitively understand the benefits from.
Jacqui Butler (04:40)
Yes, exactly. And I really want to drill in with you, what is mentorship and how does it differ from leadership? Because I do think people kind of group them together.
Amanda Jones (04:54)
They do. And I think it's probably the, it's the mentoring, the leadership piece and coaching as well. I think it's looking at those three modes or roles. And when it comes to mentoring, I think we can also break it down into sort of mentoring as a as a process and being a mentor as a role versus say mentoring skills, which I think you can have the same discussion when you talk about coaching, because I know a lot of people and leaders like to think of themselves or describe themselves as a coach. I coach my people, mentor my people. I have a bit of an issue with some of that terminology and some of the hats I think that people wear.
So when it comes to those different roles, I think that mentors hold a special and quite unique place. And so whenever I talk about mentoring as a role, it's quite distinct from the mentoring skills. So let's put aside the skills for a moment and think about that role of a mentor. And particularly if we start with mentor versus leader. And often when I'm working with leadership teams, I'll talk about that distinction. And for me, it comes back to the agenda and also the reason what, what's the why behind either wanting to be seen or positioning yourself as a mentor versus say that leader. So the leader role generally comes with a title or position you're designated within an organisation. And the reality is that the agenda is to align with the organisational outcomes that you're working towards. Whereas a mentor, I believe, needs to be able to put aside any personal agenda. And it really is about the mentor, the mentee, sorry.
When we [Leadership Shapers] run programs and do training, the tagline we use for that is very much around, “this is not your journey.” So really sit genuinely in that role of a mentor. Really it’s firstly, asking yourself the question, “Why do I want to be a mentor? What's in it for me?” And if you start to see that there's something in it for you more than that idea of “I really want to give back, I really want to support the next generation and I can put aside all of my own personal aspirations,” then I think it starts to sort of muddy the waters on it. I also feel that if there's a financial reward for the mentor, that also makes it quite gray and because again, you’re shifting that agenda. And I think if you're being paid to be a mentor, then I would argue that it's a consulting role because you suddenly have bias in the outcome that is more aligned to what you want and need from that. And it becomes, I guess, potentially even more transactional. So I think that starting with that question of, OK, why do I want to be a mentor? What's in it for me is critical.
Jacqui Butler (08:46)
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Amanda Jones (08:49)
And so being able to look at it and say, “Okay, I know that this is not aligned with my job, my role as a leader or even as a coach,” and being able to say, “I know that this is not my journey and I can put aside my own needs. This is not my opportunity for redemption to make good on the mistakes that I made in my journey.”
Jacqui Butler (08:56)
So I actually want to touch on something that you, that I think is really important delineation because you're right, I speak with leaders all the time who also say, “You know, when I'm mentoring my team, when I'm coaching my team,” and it might sound a little bit like we're splitting hairs, but actually, yes, you can be doing those things in terms of process, characteristics, traits, attributes, skills. Yes, you can be leaning into a mentorship type skillset that doesn't necessarily, that you're going to be positioned as a mentor. And it also, the reason that I think this is important is it's not reasonable to think that the person on the receiving end is going to get the same benefit or that it's a proxy for an actual mentor that's operating within a more formalised mentoring role.
Amanda Jones (10:15)
Yes. And I think that is a really good point to make because you're right. It's almost, if you're setting up with that expectation and say within an organisation, you say, “Yes, we want this mentoring culture,” and then don't put that sort of structure formality in and pairing of a mentor and a mentee, is probably one of the most, I think, critical success factors. And so you're right. If you're saying that, well, I'm your leader, therefore I am your mentor, then I just don't think you're going to get the benefits that you would expect. And I also think that we can weave in the concept of almost that sort of training piece. So again, if as a leader, I'm saying, well, I'm also mentoring you, I would argue that what you're doing is you're actually training the person because you're looking to impart a specific skill set and specific capability but the agenda and the outcome is related to business outcomes.
So again, the critical piece for I think that genuine, that true mentor-mentee relationship is that it is about what the mentee needs and wants. And so you can see straight away how there's a potential conflict if the mentee themselves isn't looking for what the mentor leader is trying to teach and train them.
Jacqui Butler (11:47)
Right. And that I think can be a really common tension point as well, because inherently and so often, you work with leaders as well. We see leaders who are put into a leadership role because they're good at the previous role. And so then they're leading people, sharing how they've done it and how they've achieved success in a particular process or task. And so there is always a bias in terms of I'm going to show you how to do it because this is how I do it and that makes it the best way or the correct way.
Amanda Jones (12:19)
Yes. Yes. Yes. And a step further, and because this is how I want you to do it.
Jacqui Butler (12:29)
Yeah, exactly.
Amanda Jones (12:31)
So yeah, it's really hard then. And I'll often challenge leaders who tell me that they are mentoring their direct reports. And the question I ask is - Okay, if that is the case, feel confident that if there was a conflict between an organisational outcome that you need, or that you need from that person in that role, versus being able to say - Okay, maybe the best thing for this person is to work somewhere else. Are you able to distinguish between them and put that person's needs above your own?
Jacqui Butler (13:14)
So what is your definition of a mentor? Like, what is it?
Amanda Jones (13:20)
So rather than defining, I guess, a mentor, I would love to share what we see as being, I guess, that whole sort of - the mentoring context, which is around connecting the wisdom of the mentor with the ambition of the mentee.
So I think when you look at it that way, you can extract the definition from there. So it starts with (if we start at the mentee side of it) is that there's something that they want. So they have an ambition, whatever that might be. And because we're connecting it to that wisdom and implicit within that is an alignment. So it's about saying that the mentor has that degree of experience. They have the wisdom to impart. That is going to support the mentee in their ambition. So it links that idea of, okay, firstly, this is not your journey. So again, it's about the mentee. And it does imply again that the mentor has some experience that is going to be valuable. So we can distinguish it then say, from a coach where we know that to be an effective coach, you don't actually have to have any direct experience in the realm of whatever it is that the coaching client is looking to do, because it's very much around holding that space.
Jacqui Butler (14:47)
Yes. And a lot of the time it's actually a benefit, right? If you don't have experience, because then your bias isn't going to sneak in so much. Yeah.
Amanda Jones (14:50)
Yes, exactly. Yes. As you well know. And so again, that's sort of one of the pieces that differentiates say a mentor and a coach, is that the mentee is there to share their experience. But again, in a way that has to be useful for the mentee.
Jacqui Butler (15:13)
Yeah.
Amanda Jones (15:15)
So it does, so I think that when you start to dig into it, you can see how then the mentoring skillset is quite critical. Because to hold yourself as the mentor outside of your own experience and to be able to look through the lens of how do I make my experience useful for the mentee, in their context?
Jacqui Butler (15:47)
Yeah, that's so interesting because it's not about like, let me tell you everything I know and let my ego drive. It's like, well, what do you need from me to support you with your ambition? I love that.
Amanda Jones (15:56)
Yeah. And when you start to look at it through that lens, again, you can see that it does require that ability to step back and look through those different lenses. And so a high degree of self-awareness is going to be critical to that success in being a mentor.
You could probably guess where I'm going with this. We've talked about, well, why am I doing this? What is my thinking around this, my ability to step back, and immediately to me it connects it back to that whole emotional intelligence piece. So it's that self-leadership first. And so that was where I kind of started, where instead of spending more time looking at the mentoring, thinking about what makes a great mentor? And I literally did years of research. So surveying people, asking your experiences of mentors, great mentors, what were their traits and extracting that and being able to distill it down to specific factors that we could then identify as being aligned with a high impact mentor.
And then that actually led to building into a framework for high impact mentoring. And so it gives us the ability to look at those skills and a process in a structured way that I think can really unlock that potential from mentoring in a much more accessible and practical way. Basically taking some of the guesswork out of, okay, well if I want to be a great mentor or I want to have a great mentoring experience, how do I do that?
Jacqui Butler (17:56)
Yeah. And it also sounds like self-awareness is such a critical part of emotional intelligence. It's providing a bit of a scaffolding or structure through which someone can assess their own skillset. Like I've been in marketing for 20 years, so therefore I must be a really good mentor in the marketing space. Or am I? And that's why I think doing this podcast and having this conversation is important because then it's like, well, I might be good at that, but am I good at distilling that down and delivering it in a way that is actually useful and meets the mentee's ambition?
Amanda Jones (18:38)
Absolutely. And we've used the words here and the way that we like to really hone in on this is with the really simple concept of interesting versus useful. So we've all got great stories and I'm sure I could listen to you share marketing stories and experiences because you would have that wealth of experience and the knowledge and I know that I would find that deeply interesting. The question is, now how useful might that be to me right now for what I need?
From the mentor side of it, again, having that awareness around, playing in the space of interest versus as you said before, how do I make this really useful for the mentee and what they need right now? And then on the mentee side of it, part of it is having that confidence and the courage to ask for what they need or to ask, how can we make this really interesting story, interesting experience that you've had really useful for me? So I do find that that concept of interesting versus useful lands really well with both the mentors and the mentees.
Jacqui Butler (19:56)
Yes, and me as well, because I'm guilty of that, like, let me tell you a story, you know? But actually, I don't want to blur the lines and sit in the gray too much. But I think that's a good catch cry for leaders as well, because I'll often have clients who will say, can you help me manage up? Because when I go into my one-on-one with my leader, they talk for 90 percent of the time telling me about their experience or what they're working on or the challenges they're having, they vent to me and I don't actually get anything out of it. It's a really common experience I think.
Amanda Jones (20:42)
Yeah, for sure. So I alluded to the framework that we've designed around mentoring in particular. But what we're seeing with it is that it's actually relevant and applicable in any one-on-one interaction, and particularly as a leader as well, because it centers around sort of three, well, three elements, but they're aligned to three equally desirable outcomes around achieving objectives. So if I think about the example that you just gave of a leader going into their one-on-one, it's around, what are the objectives? So in this conversation, what do I need to get out of it? And being really clear and then contracting around getting those specific objectives met. It's about growing knowledge. So what are the capabilities here that need to be grown and developed and how do we do that together? And then the third element around connection, which is about that sort of the collaboration and building the collaboration. And now what we found was that if we can get that balance between the contracting capability connection, then you are simultaneously achieving your objectives, growing knowledge and building collaboration. And that's the way in which you can maximise that impact. And that, again, even in any one-on-one or that leadership conversation, you can use that framework to say, “OK, well, do I feel that connection? Do I feel understood? Am I understanding? Have we got that courage to call out, for example, it's all great, that's all really interesting. This is what I need.” So the courage kind of comes into it. Being present in the conversation.
The commitment to the outcomes, they're the factors within the contracting. And then within that sort of capability piece, and you alluded to this before as well, communication is really critical. So again, it's how do I take what I know? And the example I like to give for this is, you could be the smartest person in the world, but if you can't communicate in a way that makes sense to other people and is actually useful to them, then it's really that knowledge and wisdom. And then I think fundamental to all of these, whether it's coaching, leadership, mentoring, is a growth mindset. It's that fundamental belief that we are capable of learning, growing, developing. And in mentoring, that sits on both sides of the mentor and the mentee being in a whole space of growth.
Jacqui Butler (23:23)
So would you say, okay, so we're looking at this framework, right? And so contracting, I just want to sort of summarise this and bring it all together. So contracting is really around what do you need from this interaction? What do I need to bring to this interaction as the mentor or it kind of goes for both sides, in order to achieve that goal and making that explicit.
Amanda Jones (24:13)
Yes.
Jacqui Butler (24:13)
It’s not just a thought process, I really need to get this out of this conversation, but not actually telling the other person what you need. So that's kind of setting up the contract for the interaction. And then we've got capability and this is around how you're communicating clearly your wisdom as it pertains to the ambition of the mentee.
Amanda Jones (24:19)
Yes. Yes, definitely.
Jacqui Butler (24:40)
And then we've got the connection and this sounds like it's really where that emotional intelligence comes in. Seeing the other person as a human, I would imagine there's a lot of empathy involved here. And is this where you would say the growth mindset component sits in terms of, see you as a human being with so much potential and so I'm going to work with you to achieve it.
Amanda Jones (25:07)
Yeah, to some extent the growth mindset is a factor that sits within the capability element. Yeah. And it's because if you think about growing knowledge, then it needs to start with that belief firstly that, well, our capability isn't fixed. Whereas that connection, as you said, definitely, that empathy piece comes into it because the two factors there are around courage.
Jacqui Butler (25:14)
It's possible. Yeah.
Amanda Jones (25:36)
So that firstly, starts with that. Well, learning starts with not knowing and how comfortable are we to sit in the discomfort of not knowing. And that's both on the mentor and the mentee side. So often what I hear from mentors is and it's really interesting because I've heard this from some of the most accomplished leaders and business owners, often not having retired and looking to give back, and having achieved amazing things in their careers, and then talking about the fear around then stepping into this mentoring role. And I think it takes courage to share that and that vulnerability. And that was one of the things when I interviewed people around some of your memorable mentors and what made them a great mentor. The word vulnerability came up so often.
And so we actually looked at using vulnerability as that factor, but ended up going with courage instead, because it's more sort of aspirational rather than aspiring to be vulnerable. It's that courage to be vulnerable, if you like. But it is, as I said, the one thing that people did feel much more connected to, someone who was comfortable saying, “I've made mistakes,” or “I don't know” or “I actually don't have an answer for you, let's work on that together. Or how can we actually find a path through?” And then the second part, that understanding really unlocks that connection and the collaboration because it opens up that space for both sides to really dive into. Like you said before, it's that the depth of understanding around, well, if you're the mentee, what is it that you need?
And am I as the mentor understanding that? And am I creating the safety for you to be open with me around what you need?
Jacqui Butler (27:32)
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because this relationship is actually really vulnerable because it requires for a mentee to say, “I don't know,” or “I need help.” And that takes courage, especially because a lot of the time we find that people who enter into a mentor mentorship type of relationship are not the 21 year old new grads. It's more people who are sort of moving through the ranks or they're ready to take a step up and they need something that's going to help them get to that next level. So acknowledging that actually we don't know something is really, is a vulnerable process. And when you were talking about connection, the thing that keeps coming up for me is Brene Brown's idea of grounded confidence from both sides because the mentor does need to be able to say, “That is a really great challenge. I don't have experience in that.” Like, I know what I know and I know what I don't know, and I'm okay with that. Not, I'm gonna pretend I do [know].
Amanda Jones (28:43)
Yes, and this is where, I mean, you said it before as well, it's that ego piece being, I'll actually just put ego aside and sit in that discomfort of not having the answers and that's okay. And this is where I think I love hearing from mentors in particular, how much they have gotten out of the relationship. And it really does drive that idea of the two-way street. And when you get the right combination of mentor or mentee and have the right support around a program, then that two-way street is a huge benefit that mentors can get out of the process because remembering we're putting aside any financial reward or any other kind of agenda for an outcome. And so that personal satisfaction is often the biggest thing that mentors talk about at the conclusion, whether it's in a program or an ongoing relationship.
Jacqui Butler (29:52)
Yes, absolutely. Really, and I think that's important because sometimes in mentorship programs, it's like I am either in this program because I work at the same organisation and then, as we said before, that can bring its own biases and challenges. Or someone is joining an external mentorship program and paying for the privilege. And so I think it's important to point out that becoming a mentor brings other rewards.
Amanda Jones (30:17)
Yes.
Jacqui Butler (30:27)
So in coaching, a lot of the time we want to get the coachee to a place where they don't need us anymore, right? And one of my favorite definitions of successful leadership is that no one notices when you're not there. That's when you're a successful leader because they don't need you. They're not reliant upon you. So in a mentoring relationship, what does success look like? Like what's the, I guess, termination point of actually we've, we've nailed it. Let's move on.
Amanda Jones (30:48)
That is a great question. And I think you're right. It's much easier to define where it is more, I guess, transactionally based, which is coaching in that professional sense, not leadership. Absolutely.
For me, I think that the ultimate success from the mentoring piece is a mentoring pair that comes together in a structured program, which I very much do believe you get the most impact when there is a start and a finish and the process is supported. So there is a conclusion, and this aligns with the framework as well. So you've contracted as both the mentor and the mentee for a specific amount of time, a specific amount of sessions at a minimum. And often what we'll say is, look, this is the minimum. It's usually six catch-ups over six months. So on average once a month, cause we know that we can get good traction. It's enough time to set some actions, go and do some things, come back, supporting all of that.
And then yes, wrapping it up. And then what I've seen is that those relationships then just continue on a more informal basis. So because of the connection that most people will have built, they don't want to stop. Then it just becomes that, and they might only catch up once a year, but there'll be that ongoing connection.
Or there might be something more structured than that. Let's catch up every six months or that confidence, that courage to pick up the phone and say, “Jacqui, I know we haven't caught up in ages. Can I just bounce this off you?” Cause you've already established the foundations of that relationship with all of those elements covered.
Jacqui Butler (33:05)
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Actually, I really like that idea of a formal process so that everyone kind of knows what they're doing and where everyone stands, but using that as a bit of a foundation for ongoing needs arise. And that's kind of that ongoing component is probably what I'm more familiar with in terms of mentoring. Cause I think a lot of the time people will get a mentor or connect with a mentor, this is someone who used to be my leader, for example, years ago and we've got that working relationship and I still call upon them every now and then when I'm having challenges and they help me and that's that kind of informal relationship.
Amanda Jones (33:42)
Yes. Relationships. Yes, definitely. So what I see is if you've been able to be part of a program, it's like you're catalysing that relationship and we do, it's sort of compacting what might've otherwise taken years to develop, say in a working relationship or just kind of over time, we're sort of fast tracking all of those bits around aligning, I want to achieve objectives and I was able to do that faster because of the mentoring relationship. I grew my knowledge and built this connection and it's really that connection piece that then I think has that longevity. And again, my experience and when you talk to people, I'm sure you all have had the same conversations, is particularly within organisations where they have mentoring programs and go, “Oh yeah, I was paired with someone..” and then if you don't have that ongoing support, most often they just tend to kind of peter out. And so you're not getting the benefits. You're not creating the impact as if you've had that support. And then the other thing I often hear is, “I didn't really know what to talk about.” And both the mentors and mentees say that as well. So this is where I think for contracting, if you need a starting point, okay well, what do you want? What do you need? And begin with the end in mind. And we were talking about something before that came in when we're talking about contracting is, well, if we don't know where we want to head, then it just becomes a nice conversation. You might have the connection. You might even have the capability, but without the contracting - this actually this segues nicely into another aspect around the framework - well, this is actually more around the profile. So from the framework that we developed around those three elements, we've actually created a profile which aligns with some prevailing styles of mentoring. So if we want to get some insight and you said this before, it's like, “Okay, I know loads about marketing, loads of experience. How would I be mentoring someone doing that?”
The profile can actually help you with that starting point. And so where I was going with it before, is that if you've got the connection, you've got the capability, but without the contracting, clarity, objections, objectives, then it is ad hoc. So that's the informal ad hoc style. You can still create impact. It's just not going to be as high.
Jacqui Butler (36:36)
Yeah, and I know I've already said this, but, making it explicit. So dropping any assumption like, “Okay, well, we're entering into a mentoring-ship, a mentoring relationship. Therefore, I'm going to impart everything that's ever happened to me in my career. That's what they want from me. That's what I do as a mentor, off we go.” That might not actually be what they need from that relationship. So just asking, just having the question, and it's just such a common thing that people don't do.
Amanda Jones (37:14)
Yes but you would see the same thing as well. And this is why the framework also works in particular in a leadership context. It's around expectations. “Have I been clear about my expectations?” And it works, again, as the two-way street. “What am I expecting as a mentor from you, as the mentee?” And that is that commitment. It's the showing up. It's that you will do that. And it's really interesting.
I've found in a number of the programs that are facilitated, it's the mentees that are the harder ones to kind of get to commit and show up, which does bother me because I think, this is for you. This is about you. And the number of times y'all have mentors saying, “Look, I've emailed, I've messaged and I haven't heard from them.”
Jacqui Butler (37:58)
So what I want to just hone, like sort of drive home is you have a mentoring framework, you also have a profile that people can do and we're gonna talk more about that shortly, right? But I just want to touch on that idea because I think you've really brought us into this relationship. Like how do we find the right mentor-mentee relationship? And the reason that comes up for me is, are people not turning up because they haven't been paired optimally?
Amanda Jones (38:39)
That hasn't been the theme or the experience that I've seen. I think there's a couple of things. One is around the courage piece. And often what I hear from mentees is that they look at their mentors and they think they're so busy. I don't want to bother them. And so again, having that relationship as part of a structured program helps with that,
because again, this is around, what is it? Like what's the reason that a mentor has signed up? And also making it really clear, and again, this is the contracting piece upfront, what are you signing up for? And what is the expectation? So the expectation is that you're going to come and do some training. I think training both the mentor and the mentee is critical and just really helpful for both sides of it. And again, just build that confidence, give some tools, some framework, some skills that can be used also outside of the mentoring program. So being able to say to the mentee, your mentor has signed up for this, they've made that commitment. It's okay, they want to spend the time with you. And then I think the second piece again is perhaps not having thought through what is it that I want out of this? What is it that I'm expecting to get out of it? So I think that that's a critical question as a mentee, “Why do I want to, why do I want to mentor? Now what is the ultimate outcome?” And I think that maybe this is a growth mindset piece as well. I can often correlate those mentees who don't, I guess, show up the way that you would want and expect them to. And that can come back to sort of that growth mindset or actually not believing in their own ability to learn and grow. And so then the work of the mentor is in finding that path through to, yes, you are capable of learning, growing. And it's okay to start from that bottom level of learning, which is I don't know what I don't know. And I think that the other piece is that a lot of mentees just get the confidence piece ultimately, which is such a shame because the irony of it is that the program and the mentoring is a way to boost that confidence and have that growth, and this is why I look from a framework perspective and say okay the connection piece, start with the connection if that there's something in your mentee, and maybe they’re sort of missing that courage piece. How do I, as the mentor, create that safety through the understanding for you to feel that it's okay to show up and not know.
Jacqui Butler (42:02)
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And so it sounds like in terms of creating these relationships, there's really kind of two lanes, right? One is where your organisation has a formalised program, I know at Leadership Shapers you offer those. So in terms of training both parties, helping with the pairing, trying to get people set up for success and having a really structured program in place. So that again, everything's explicit, everything's on the table, everyone knows where they stand. And then it sounds like the other kind of lane is around, maybe it's more organic or, cause I imagine that there's a lot of people who are like, I'd love a mentor, but what does that look like? And how do I find them if my organisation doesn't have a formalised program?
So do you have any suggestions in terms of how people - and both sides, right? - how do I find a mentor? How do I find a mentee? Where do I start?
Amanda Jones (43:04)
Yeah, and I think that it comes back to probably at the very core, asking the question. But start with asking the question of yourself, “What am I looking for?” So again, if you don't, if you're not clear about, if you just say, “I want a mentor,” then that is probably not going to be enough to kind of find the right person. It's what do I want that mentor for? What is it that I'm expecting to get from that? So it does take a little bit of that initial sort of soul searching. And look, it may come back to, as I said, that very fundamental first level of learning, which is, I don't know what I don't know. And that's okay, start with that. Then it's kind of, all right, well, my bar, not I've got a low bar, but start anywhere, then start to ask the question, who do I know? Who can I? And then I would say, just ask. And again, you need some level of confidence and courage to then be okay that someone might say no and being okay with that. And I think that it probably leads to, I guess that in that situation where say as a mentee you're missing that sort of fundamental, I guess that courage piece at the beginning to even ask for the help, then it's where you do need someone else or some other process. And there are lots of industry bodies that offer mentoring programs. So again, it's about putting your hand up for it and asking for help. And I think that if you can, a mentee who is willing to ask for help, it's a solid foundation for then ultimately being a good mentee because you're going into it very much with that idea of I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to be somewhere other than where I am now. And I think that as a mentor, that's the sort of person that you want to work with because they've got the openness for that.
Jacqui Butler (45:16)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's almost kind of that level of aspiration, right? Like, well, where do I want to go? Who do I know that's there or who has been through that journey? Whose wisdom I can tap into. And I wonder, I know that being a leader and being a mentor need to be separate to reduce the level of bias that is inherent in leaders mentoring. I do wonder if there is an opportunity for prospective mentees who identify that a mentor would be something that would help them achieve their goals to check in with their leader in terms of this is where I want to get to. What do you think that I could work on in order to get there and perhaps that is a really good source of data to determine what your objectives are and what you want out of that relationship and that's the first step on that path of finding a mentor that's going to meet you there.
Amanda Jones (46:24)
Yeah, I love that. it's it's again, no, take it one step further. And then asking of that leader, have you got ideas of where I could go to, to get some of those skills potentially or experience? Yeah, do you know anyone? And that's what I mean by asking. It's just that and ask your friends. You'll know someone that's had a mentor.
So it is just, then otherwise, Googling, that's the other. There are, yeah, there are, there are ways, there are definitely ways. And I do believe that if you, if you start from that, first, that desire to have a mentor, the clarity of why you want the mentor and what you want to get out of it, then you're already on that path. And then it's just, okay actually take some steps and have the conversations, do the work to find the lead and then ask.
Jacqui Butler (47:31)
Absolutely. Is it because, I know that you know, we want to keep the leader and the mentor somewhat separate for all of the reasons that you've articulated. Is there a level of mentorship that you feel a leader can offer and what would that look like?
Amanda Jones (47:50)
Yeah, I think that, again, it's when I said before, you I have had those conversations with leaders who say that I also mentor, teams or particular people in my team or in my or in my organisation and that who are able to put aside the agenda of the organisation and their role as a leader and do have that confidence that if it came to it, it's like, Jacqui, look, I know that this is not, you are not working to your full potential here. And as much as, I don't want you to leave and you know that as your mentor, not your leader, then I'd encourage you to go and pursue those other avenues. And I think that it can still be ultimately of service to the organisation because I do believe that in time, if I'm having that conversation with you, Jacqui, then you're going to know in yourself that this is not the place that you want to be. And so being able to support someone to go and pursue their passion, their dreams, their potential from a contribution perspective is amazing. And then think about you then going out into the world, talking about that leader to say, look, I know that me leaving was a blow to the organisation, but to be supported to pursue that, you become an advocate for that person and the organisation. So I do think that always looking to support the individual and connecting them to their potential, wherever that might be, is that I guess that higher purpose, it just is really hard to do that most of the time when you're also under pressure and there's expectations of you to perform to a certain degree.
Jacqui Butler (49:45)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so what I'm hearing is probably a couple of things. One is if you as a leader feel as though stepping into a mentorship space, you've got the experience and you've got the desire to pay it forward, I guess, then perhaps finding a mentee beyond your team is an opportunity once you've identified what their objectives are.
But then it sounds to me like, leaders are humans. And so a lot of the time you'll be a leader and also a good friend, right? Or a leader I’ve worked with, it’s a couple who are married and one was a leader and one was in the team, which is quite rare, but it happens. And so we do have to kind of take hats on and off. And what sounds to me to be the real opportunity here for those leaders who want to lean into mentorship traits, not necessarily be a formal mentor, is to use this framework. So when you're in that contracting step phase saying, okay, well, what do you need from me in this conversation, using the connection, using that capability and everything that you've explained, but then also saying, “Okay, well, as your leader, what can I do if someone does want to leave, or if they're not in the right role as your leader, what can I do to retain you?” But if I were to step into a mentorship role, I'd say, “You need to do what's best for you.”
Amanda Jones (51:30)
Yes.
Jacqui Butler (51:31)
And I know this is becoming a bit of a common theme, but just be explicit and say, here I am. Well, how do you need me to show up for you in this conversation? Do you, are you looking to have a conversation with me in more of a mentorship capacity? Because I do have people who would say this is a bit arrogant, but I do have experience or, because I have sort of lived through this. Or are you looking for me to respond to you in my leadership role? Or are you looking for a friend to demonstrate empathy? Like, you tell me what you need, and I'll tell you if I can meet you there.
Amanda Jones (52:05)
I love that and you talk about the hats piece as well and I think that even as like sitting as a coach, I tend to start with the coach hat generally and then there will be times where it's okay. I know that I'm slipping into that mentoring space because I have my own lived experience but also you're the same, like we've worked with so many different people in different times and spaces with challenges and so forth. So we do have that wealth of knowledge. The differences and again, I think this is a good point to make to distinguish from the leader piece, is being able to make suggestions, give advice without attachment.
Jacqui Butler (52:37)
Hmm. Yes, that's the thing, isn't it?
Amanda Jones (52:59)
It is, yes. Because I think as a leader, it's really hard to say, “Jacqui, here's some ideas and I'm saying all of those things without attachment, but actually I need you to go and do X, Y and Z. And my expectation is that you will deliver that, not if you feel like it.”
Jacqui Butler (53:12)
Yes! Or whatever you decide let me know because that's going to impact me like, I'm the next domino in the series.
Amanda Jones (53:28)
And I know that, and again, I feel this is a similar kind of thought process around coaching and people who call themselves a coach without having actually done any coach training. You and I both have done many hours of training to be able to call ourselves a coach. And so, yes, there's definitely a piece around that. I'm going to own that to say that I have invested time and money and hours and hours of actual structured coaching as a profession in order to be able to say, I am a coach and I understand coaching skills. But central to all of that again is anything that happens in those conversations. It's without attachment. The only outcome I'm looking for is for my client to have the best experience and ultimately I'm driven to connect people to their potential. How they do that, I'm completely unattached to and the same as a mentor. So when I say, okay, well, here's some ideas, I'm looking for what's landing with them, not to validate that I've had a good idea. And I think that's also being able to hold your space as a mentor and not feel, I guess, invalidated yourself from that.
Jacqui Butler (54:57)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. We're kind of moving into coach versus mentor space, but I do want to just a coach's role is really helping an individual identify the wisdom within. And so again, if you're a leader and you're leading into some coaching traits, you would be asking some really open, expansive questions to help your team member identify the wisdom from within. The mentor role is almost the opposite of that which is inputting to them some of your wisdom. It's kind of the opposite, it's identifying the gap and helping them by sharing your own wisdom but again it and it's up to them to determine what they can do with that. So in both of those scenarios it's about the recipient of the wisdom, whether they've tapped into their own, or whether they've tapped into yours. It's about them being in control or empowered is a better word, to choose what they're going to do with that wisdom now that they've got it. And I think that's really just clicked for me because I think you're right as leaders, it's like I'm going to give you wisdom and then I'm going to watch you like a hawk and I'm going to see what you're going to do with it and then at the end of the year I'm going to assess your performance based on what you've done with the wisdom. It's so different. And I think to be a really successful leader is to utilise coaching, is to utilise mentoring, is to be more directive. Like we know there are so many different leadership styles and it's about utilising the style that is going to help the person sitting in front of you. And I think that's the clincher for all of these things. It seems like we're splitting hairs and it's all kind of semantics, but it's really about, who are you doing this for? Are you doing it for you or are you doing it for the person in front of you? So if you’re doing it for the person in front of you, right on. If you're doing it for you, then check in with yourself and determine if that's how you choose to be. And if you do, that's great, but you're not in your coaching or mentoring era.
Amanda Jones (57:10)
Yes, and then just own that as well. I think it could just be semantics. I actually think that though, by having that clarity and being, knowing which hat you are wearing and looking at it from, and basically sort of have those same concepts around that, it's the solutions that lie within the mix, it's bringing something from the outside.
And then that leader, again, it's that agenda aligned with an organisation. Having that clarity is a way, though, to avoid downstream frustration, conflict, because it’s about being in alignment or out of alignment. So when we're not aligned, because if we're not clear, then you will know. You will know that because something will feel off.
And then if you don't address it, then we know it just turns into that spiralling and that frustration, disconnected expectations, more frustration. Then, we've sat in those interventions, if you like, to try and bring it all back. And so I think being able to clearly articulate the skills, as I said, what are the hats?
But what are the skills that you can leverage? Because we definitely leverage coaching skills as a mentor. So the listening, powerful questions, and then the mentoring if we use our framework, just the contracting capability connection as the foundations for the skills, and you bring those to your leadership.
Jacqui Butler (58:56)
Hmm and on that, I think a lot of the time people would look at that framework and go, “Yeah, I can do all three of those things, right? I'm all set. I'm ready to rock.” So talk to us a little bit about your assessment and how that might be useful if someone is listening and saying, “Hey, I am a mentor, or I want to be a mentor or want to be a mentee. How do we use this assessment?”
Amanda Jones (59:48)
Yes. So you're right. Most people will look at it and say, yeah, well sure. I do one, two and three. What we found was it's actually, it's the balance or how close to balance those elements are. So the profile lets us see that. So what it shows is how closely those elements are. And then it also shows us at the next level down. I've sort of talked about it, but haven't kind of really cemented the fact that there's two factors that sit within each of the elements. So just quickly summarise those. So contracting, we've got presence and commitment. So presence is that, you are showing up and we're showing up with that clear intention. And I'm here for you in this conversation. Commitment, do what we say we're going to do, actions completed, etc. And again, those only come to life if we know what the objectives are, what is it that we're actually wanting to get out of this. The capability, again, we've talked about it, it's that growth mindset. So starting with that belief that yes, we are capable of growth and learning. And then the communication, so being able to communicate the wisdom in effective ways. And then the connection is the courage. So again, sitting in the discomfort of not knowing both sides and their understanding, creating the safety to be open, to share, to ask for what we need and as we're building out that framework and identifying those factors, it became really clear that we could align and actually measure the factors using EQ competencies as the foundation because as we talked about, we know that emotional intelligence is highly correlated to performance outcomes. It's all about people, relationships, etc. So then we went through the process of mapping competencies to see okay well, how do we measure up if you’re in each of those factors? And then depending on those relationships we can see the balance between the elements so it puts the power in the hands of the mentor or the leader or even the mentee. So the person who's, if you're looking at your own profile, you can see, okay, what do I need to focus on? What can I grow or what do I need to sustain in order to maximise the impact? And that impact comes, as I said, from the balance. And I talked before, one of the styles that prevails if we're missing the contracting, is the ad hoc style of mentoring. The other two outside of balance, the first is transactional and that's when you've got the contracting so, what the objectives are, you've got the capability so that's all there but if that connection is missing then that's when the transactional style tends to prevail and then the final one where you've got contracting and connection but if we're missing the capability so that right knowledge for the situation, then the style tends to be social. So it'll feel really good. You'll both be showing up. You're just missing that final piece of actually growing the right knowledge. So I think being able to see those sort of the three prevailing styles outside of balance shows us how then we can map a path to impact by focusing on the one that's not as strong.
Jacqui Butler (1:03:41)
Hmm. And that makes it so clear as well because a lot of this stuff is like we've said, it's kind of a gray area and it's kind of, I love this turn of phrase, like it's this nebulous idea where there's all these different things and it's like, but how do I go? Like, what am I, what do I do? And so I love that if you are the social style, for example, then maybe your capability has the opportunity, that's the opportunity for progress. And I love that you have the two elements within that. And so it's like, but I do have the wisdom. Okay, well, do you truly believe that your mentee, do you have a growth mindset? Do you believe that they can grow and progress? Yes, I do. Okay, well then maybe it's your communication and how you're communicating that wisdom. And so you can kind of go through a process of elimination. And I also really like that this kind of stands for mentees and mentors, right? So for a mentee, what would a low capability look like? From a mentee perspective? Is that like, I can't articulate what I need or..?
Amanda Jones (1:04:30)
Yeah, well, and that's the thing it does. It basically gives you that roadmap because the profile shows us in a relative sense, the ranking of the factors. So it's both that opportunity to leverage those strengths, but also to say, okay, so for example, if it is, say it is a growth mindset. So, and I haven't actually, it'd be interesting to kind of go through the data and do some measurement around say cohorts of mentors and mentees. Intuitively, I would say that growth mindset is likely to be one of the lowest for a mentee. And if that is a challenge, it's something that you would want to focus on sort of from the get-go and you would see that. So if you're profiling the mentee and that's the lowest factor, then you'd want to be saying, okay, well, how can I support this growth mindset? And this is where we can then draw on the EQ competencies. So optimism is critical to that growth mindset. So then work on optimism because that will unlock that potential of the growth mindset and then we can work from there. So it does give you that roadmap.
Jacqui Butler (1:06:12)
Yeah. And what it sounds like as well is, know, ideally, mentor and mentee get their own profile and share them with one another. So if I'm the mentee and I realise that, I don't have such a growth mindset, or maybe that's a bit of an area of opportunity for me, I can say to my mentor, my confidence is lacking and a lot of the time I question whether or not I'm able to progress or I'm able to get better if this is just who I am and a mentee knowing that information will be so beneficial to the success of the relationship because they can support you in that.
Amanda Jones (1:07:02)
Yeah, and again, it's just that like you talked about before, just that being really clear, being really explicit, having that information upfront. So yeah, absolutely. The ideal, as you start that mentor-mentee relationship is both having the profile, even just having the framework. So if for whatever reason, there's not the opportunity to profile the mentee, certainly in our programs, we always provide the mentor with their profile because also the framework, it's a process. So it's not just a profile, it is a process. And so they can almost diagnose challenges in the relationship. They can sort of from the beginning, that I can feel we've already got a connection. So we've sort of ticked that box. Let's make sure that we've got the contracting really clear. And so that's the starting point. Or when conversations or the know, the mentoring feels like it's going a little bit off track. Again, come back into the framework and say, okay, what's going to help bring this back into balance? Because, okay, at the moment it's feeling a bit more transactional. So maybe I need to bring more empathy so that my mentee feels understood. Maybe I'm not understanding enough. So it just becomes a really practical way to keep growing the impact.
Jacqui Butler (1:08:28)
It also means that it's not just an entry point at the beginning of a process, right? So if you're a mentor, if you're listening to this and you're already a mentor, you're already a mentee, you can use this profile to determine what could make that relationship better and where there might be some deficits in terms of skills and abilities that you can lean on to maximise at any point really because you're kind of diagnosing at any point, right?
Amanda Jones (1:09:03)
And even if you do your profile and you can feel that it is balanced, then it's about sustainability. How do we sustain this? So again, just being able to sort of our eye on everything. And then we've got that opportunity to grow everything together. So, okay, how do we take it to the next level? We know that we've got this balance. So maybe we can challenge ourselves to set some more stretch targets and learn more, do more. Also what I've heard from mentors who have shown up with the balanced style is it just supports their own confidence. And it can be validating because I said it before, but it is really interesting how often mentors, smart, capable leaders, business owners, suddenly feel imposter syndrome. I hear that as well. It's like, who am I? Who am I to step into this role? And what if I don't do a good job? And what if it's not useful? And so, no, some of that self doubt creeps in. And so being able to see, actually, you know what? I've got the foundations here. And this is really good because I've got a framework to keep in mind that kind of keeps me on track.
Jacqui Butler (1:10:32)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And when I got my profile, I was balanced and I was like, thank God. I kind of do this for a job. That's really validating it. But if someone does have imposter syndrome, a lot of the time it's this kind of spiraling, but I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to feel more confident. And so by getting the profile, even if you don't have a balanced profile, it gives you the data that you need to get balanced. And so it gives a focus for that energy. Because I find with imposture syndrome a lot of the time, the energy is not put to good use. It's not a forward propulsion. It's a, “I'm going to stay here and ruminate.”
Amanda Jones (1:11:04)
Yes, and then that just keeps us stuck. As you said, often intuitively it makes sense to people when they see their style and read the description. It usually resonates quite strongly. It's relatable and they kind of see themselves in the profiles, which we know makes sense because it is based on that EQ, which is a self-assessment which is all validated. As long as the foundational assessment is valid, which we see, then this is just us looking at ourselves. But in a way, again, we talked about it at the start that as leaders, as mentors, as coaches, it starts with that self-awareness. And the more awareness we have of ourselves, the more powerfully we can give to others.
Jacqui Butler (1:12:14)
Absolutely. And what a great segue. Speaking of giving, if you're listening and this sounds really interesting to you, Amanda has very generously offered or agreed to offer 10 free profiles. So there is a link in the show notes wherever you access this podcast (or at the top of this blog post) and you'll be able to fill in a form. And Amanda or her team will reach out to you to be able to actually do one of these profiles and find out what profile you are.
How can you lean into it if it is a little bit unbalanced (and I have masses of bias because I am a leader and I'm a leadership coach and I'm all about the leadership, it's called LeadWell) – I just think it can be so beneficial to get this data and draw down your profile to determine how you show up as a leader as well, and also how you might be able to, especially if you are more senior in your leadership journey, how you might be able to impart some of your lived experience on those who are more junior than you. So thank you so much for being so generous to our listeners. And I feel like I should have said that right at the beginning!
Amanda Jones (1:13:39)
Yes, and it's good. I mean, I love the impact it creates when I take people through their profile and they get to see that and I want that opportunity for people. So yes, jump in and grab your profile.
Jacqui Butler (1:13:56)
Yeah, check it out guys.
We've spoken a lot about a lot of things in two parts. What is your gem? Like what is your pearl of wisdom, your piece of advice that you offer to people who are really interested in leaning into the mentor-mentee space?
Amanda Jones (1:14:29)
I'm going to flip that question a little bit, if that's okay? And one of the questions I ask mentors is what are your favorite words of wisdom? And we then use that and we share that with their mentees. So it's kind of that start of the connection. So you start to get to know people. And when I started asking that question, I actually then sort of asked that of myself and I was like, what are my favorite words of wisdom? And it actually came from someone that I was coaching, but then he was sort of coaching me back around some sales stuff, really simple, but hard hitting. And so I think that there's a very long answer to your question, but I'm just gonna drag it out a tiny bit longer because I keep coming back to your original question and I guess that piece for mentors and mentees is to aspire to have this sort of impact on someone that they remember and that you've been able to make that difference. Because these words just landed with me and they were, “Control the controllables.”
So that's been some great words of wisdom to me that pop into my head. But the broader piece is just that, as I say, when you get that wisdom from someone or give it to someone, it's just such an amazing gift. So my message to mentors is to step into that opportunity to contribute, being able to give a gift of that wisdom to a mentee and then for a mentee to graciously accept those gifts and know that you can enhance your own journey. And the number of times out of programs the mentees who have then gone on to put their hand up to be a mentor is really high because that idea of, like you said, paying it forward, that I can make this contribution and mentoring is such a beautiful, powerful mechanism to contribute in really meaningful ways. So yeah, I would encourage people to get involved, look for those opportunities. If you're not sure, reach out to us. It's what we do, what we love and just want to be able to create as many impactful, amazing mentoring relationships as possible.
Jacqui Butler (1:17:12)
Love that, amazing. Control the controllable. I think that is really important. And I think it's a really nice conclusion to this conversation because there is a lot of, this is mentoring and this isn't, and bias kind of comes in everywhere. But I think, let's really distill it down to what is your objective? What's within my control and move forward accordingly.
I've got two more questions for you. One, what is one book or resource or thing that people should read to get more information or just in general?
Amanda Jones (1:17:52)
Yeah, I’ve got a book that I've read and referenced a lot recently, which is centered around leadership. And again, we talk about that idea of leadership and it doesn't even have to be in a leader capacity. It can be very much around leading ourselves. But almost as a leadership manual, I love “Turn the Ship Around” by David Market. He espouses this idea of a leader-leader. So it loops back beautifully to what you talked about earlier on around almost that redundancy as a leader saying I can step out of it because I have done my job. Come with a leader-leader mindset, which will bring in coaching and mentoring skills. We are enabling others to step up. It's again, a really powerful framework and he's got lots of sort of practical concepts around how to do that.
Jacqui Butler (1:18:56)
Amazing! “Turn the Ship Around” and I'm gonna have, “Turn the Beat Around” in my head for the rest of the day and now that I've said that, so will everyone else but just be thankful that I'm not singing yet, but at least I won't forget the name of the book. And then finally how can people reach out to you? How can people find you if they want to learn more or if they're interested in maybe a mentoring program in their workplace? Where do we go?
Amanda Jones (1:19:28)
Hmm. Yeah,well, we're in all the places. So Leadership Shapers, that is our website address all one word on LinkedIn. We're just getting onto the Instagram space, but keep an eye out. We've got lots of little words of wisdom, our own little nuggets. We like to call it, sort of shaping the way, our lessons from coaching mentoring experiences, just to hopefully give those little reminders. Sometimes you just need those little prompts front of mind, and basically we start with the proposition that everyone deserves to thrive and we just want to find as many ways to help people do that, so yes, reach out and find us.
Jacqui Butler (1:20:09)
There you go. Amazing. Yeah, if you want to thrive and who doesn't?
Amanda Jones (1:20:14)
And shape a better future!
Jacqui Butler (1:20:16)
There you go. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time and your generosity in sharing your knowledge in mentoring. But I feel like we've actually gone so much broader than that. And I've really enjoyed learning and I really hope that you people who are listening have also learned a lot today and thanks for your time. We'll see you next time. Thanks, Amanda.
Amanda Jones (1:20:42)
Thanks Jacqui, love chatting.
Jacqui Butler (1:20:44)
See ya!
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