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Creating workplaces where everyone can thrive starts with understanding and inclusion. This week I sat down with Kate Hardiman, an advocate for neurodiversity and inclusion, to explore how leaders can support neurodivergent individuals without feeling overwhelmed. This is Part 1 of a 3-part series, where we’ll dive deep into building inclusive environments for all.
Together, Kate and I break down the myths, fears, and barriers that often hold leaders back and share practical, approachable strategies for fostering truly inclusive workplaces.
About Kate Hardiman
Kate Hardiman’s journey into diversity, equity, and inclusion, with a focus on neurodiversity, stems from her personal experiences with gender discrimination, burnout, and her own lived-experience of neurodivergence. These experiences inspired her to become a facilitator, consultant, and speaker, helping organisations understand the importance of true inclusivity, and demonstrating how inclusivity benefits both individuals and organisations.
Kate focuses on ensuring workplaces support neurodivergent individuals, developing environments where people feel safe, valued, understood, and empowered.
Connect with Kate:
Website: https://unify360.com.au/
Mentioned in This Episode:
Transcript:
Are you neurodivergent or do you work in a neurodiverse team? Perhaps you're a leader and you want to make sure you're providing a safe workplace for all. Well, you're in the right place. Welcome to today's episode of Lead Well with Jacqui, where we are joined by an expert in inclusive leadership to guide us on how we can create inclusive workplaces for all. I am so excited about this episode! We’re going to be answering questions like: What is neurodivergence? How can we lead equitably? And what should we stop and start doing? You will leave with tangible actions that you can apply in your workplace today, tomorrow, and into the future. But first, let me introduce today’s guest.
Kate Hardeman is the founder and CEO of Unify 360, a corporate training and consulting company specialising in inclusive leadership with a focus on neurodiversity. Kate and I have known each other for over a year now, I think, and I have found her to be incredibly kind, supportive, and knowledgeable. I cannot wait to tap into this wisdom today. Welcome, Kate!
Kate Hardeman (01:16): What a lovely intro. That gave me the warm fuzzies. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
Jacqui Butler (01:23): I'm thrilled. So for the listeners at home, Kate and I have had so many conversations on this topic, and it just was an absolute no-brainer for me to have you on the podcast so that you can share with leaders far and wide how they can create these more inclusive workplaces. So my first and maybe most important question: I’d love to hear you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about you.
Kate Hardeman (01:49): Absolutely. Well, my journey starting Unify 360 wasn’t a straight line, I guess. It was born out of my own lived experience across my career with things like gender discrimination, sexual harassment, workplace bullying, burnout, and also the lived experience of neurodivergence. So it was the collection of all of that, I guess – all of those experiences that inspired me to start Unify 360 because I really wanted to help other organisations be successful by becoming places where people love to work and they want to stay, right? Because they feel a true sense of belonging and they feel valued for who they are. So I've always been drawn to work that's both purpose-driven and about empowering other people.
Looking back, I grew up around a lot of neurodivergence, it’s fair to say, in my family and at school. So when I'm talking about neurodivergence, I’m talking about conditions like autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, and dyslexia. But at the time, I wasn’t aware of the extent of it. No one really was back in those days, and we didn’t have the language or the research we do now. Right? And then, flash forward to adulthood, and seeing people across my family and friendship groups either start to self-identify or get their diagnosis of neurodivergence, it just brought a lot of clarity to me. But it also highlighted the lack of understanding and support that often exists out there in the world for those experiences, and seeing how common it is for people to be misunderstood or... you know, tragically even overlooked in the workplace. It really inspired me to start Unify 360 because I wanted to help organisations be more inclusive and better at supporting people who are different, and that includes neurodivergent folks.
So, the journey to get here has been, I’d say, full of learning curves and some surprising discoveries. You and I have talked a lot over the past year about the curve of just starting a business, you know, let alone getting into this world. When I started Unify 360, I knew I was creating something I wanted for the people I cared about. That was a huge driver: practical resources and guidance to help people thrive at work and create a supportive environment that leaders can use to really understand what inclusivity means in practice.
It’s been rewarding to watch the ripple effect when a team just gets it, and they start making changes. I had a great example of this recently when I was working with a company, where one leader – he just realised, in the session, how his style of feedback was unintentionally stressing out a neurodivergent team member. The secret ingredient for that realisation was his ability to be open to self-reflection in that moment. So during that session, he self-reflected and could see the issue, and that allowed him to make a couple of tweaks – small adjustments to the way he was communicating – and the whole dynamic with that team member shifted. It was almost immediately productive, with less anxiety for that team member. So those are the kinds of wins that really fuel my passion and started me on this journey.
Jacqui Butler (05:46): Yeah, and it's interesting. I love that you've highlighted there that it is around tweaks because I think a lot of people, a lot of leaders, a lot of anyone, get so fearful that we’re going to do it wrong. We think we have to put everything we know in the bin and start again. There’s that anxiety of, “Okay, well, it’s too big for me to look into. What is inclusive leadership and how do I create an environment that is more supportive of all people? I'm too scared of having to undo everything that I know and learn from scratch. So, I’d rather just not even touch it.”
Kate Hardiman (06:28): Yeah, it seems to be a crazy default, you know, “God, this is, this is an elephant. How do I eat it? How do I even approach this?” And there’s this trepidation and this overwhelm of, “Gosh, this is massive.” So, I really do like to point out that this is really incremental. These changes can be really small. They can be really cost-effective or cost-neutral. You know, we don’t need huge budgets to make this work. We don’t need complex frameworks. We don’t need massive changes to policy. We just need to kind of start from a place of curiosity and build our awareness. The changes we can make to shift the outcomes for people can be just really slight. Really, if there’s one thing I want to get across today, it’s to convey that.
Jacqui Butler (07:18): Yeah, absolutely. And I actually think you’ve touched on a motivator for that fear early on, which is around our generation growing up through school, uni, and early careers without the language. And like you said, you know, when you were sharing your experiences as a kid and seeing this sort of neurodivergence around you, it made me think, “Yeah, like, I reckon I could rattle off half a dozen names from my schooling of people like that.” And they were always considered, you know, like the naughty kid or the, you know, the whatever kid. I think we didn’t grow up with this normalisation of neurodivergence or even a consideration that diversity is a thing. And so it is.
And we’ve got to remember that, you know, as adults, our behaviors, our values, are all formed by those cultural norms and those family norms. So then we’ve kind of moved into adulthood and this leadership space without the tools. And I think that’s where, you know, people like yourself are so important and so needed because we can learn this stuff, you know?
Kate Hardiman (08:24):That’s it. Yeah, you know, I mean, I’m probably not like everyone in that I am absolutely obsessed with this stuff. I nerd out on it. I’ve got so many books, you know, by my bedside waiting to read. I always have about five books sitting there. I just can’t get enough of it. And I don’t presume that everyone else is the same, but I have to say, having done a deep dive on this for the last couple of years in earnest and with great focus, there is just so much you can do that’s so simple and easy and at your fingertips. All it is, is being interested, being curious, and being genuinely inclusive from a leadership perspective. So, if you’ve got those little ingredients, there is so much that you will be able to do really quickly and relatively easily in your teams that will create such a huge shift in terms of creating an inclusive culture. And that’s what this is all about—just opening up the world and making it more equitable for people whose brains just happen to be wired a little bit differently.
Jacqui Butler (09:44): I read this great thing that I wrote down and really wanted to cover, and I’m glad you said that because it’s different, not deficient.
Kate Hardiman (09:55): Yeah, the community says “different, not broken.” That’s such a huge shift for people who are neurotypical. So, in other words, people whose brains are wired within a band of what’s considered typical or normal within a particular culture – because culture also defines what’s typical and what’s normal. But that’s considered to be about 80% of the population. So, we’re talking about neurodivergence being around about 20%, although I think we’ll see that change if we follow what American research is telling us. So, you know, neurotypicality – the world has been created generally by neurotypicals for neurotypical thinking.
So, the neurodivergent community absolutely needs neurotypicals to see them as different, not broken. And also, they need to see themselves as different, not broken. Because for so long, they’ve had to put up with a narrative that has pointed out their differences. They’ve had to deal with so much commentary and so much feedback over their life that they’re not something enough – you know, not able to focus enough or not paying attention enough or not sitting still enough or whatever it is. All of these micro bits of feedback have built up over the years to the point where so many neurodivergent people think that they’re broken, and that is just not right. That doesn’t serve the world for people to walk around feeling that way and seeing the world through that lens. So hopefully, through the work that I’m doing and others are doing in this space, we can really help shift that. And really convey that different, not deficient or different, not broken message. Jacqui Butler (11:37): Absolutely. And I really think that it’s important for us to remember – I feel very deeply that it is not for the oppressed to fight the oppression, and I feel like that’s relevant here in terms of, you know, if the neurotypical people are making up, I think of it as like a bell curve, right? So, if they’re making up to 80% of the population, that’s where the movement happens.
Kate Hardiman (11:47): Yeah.
Jacqui Butler (12:04): That’s where the change needs to come from. The 20% of neurodivergent people, that it’s not for them to be creating this change.
Kate Hardiman (12:15): Yeah, let’s not put the emotional load on the people who are having the toughest time. Let’s all, as a collective, let the majority carry that conversation and that movement. Couldn’t agree more.
Jacqui Butler (12:18): Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jacqui Butler (12:44): I want to get into the real guts of what neurodiversity is all about, and before we do that, I want to touch on why this is so important.
Kate Hardiman (12:44): Why it’s so important? I think it’s really simple, to be honest. This work matters because, you know, this is a really Aussie thing to say, but everyone deserves a fair go at work. Yeah. For years, as I mentioned before, workplaces have been designed for a certain type of person – someone who fits the mold of what’s considered normal. This has been the way it is.
But we know we don’t all come in one shape or size, especially when it comes to how our brains work. So neurodivergent folk often think and work differently. And that’s, you know, I can’t say it enough, it’s such a valuable thing when people bring their difference. They often bring fresh ideas. They bring different perspectives. They bring creative problem-solving skills. They bring unique talents that are really incredible assets for teams if organisations can kind of take the blinkers off. So, I just always say, what workplace doesn’t want that? What workplace doesn’t want access to those sorts of things? But there’s a bit of a catch. So, if the workplace isn’t set up to accommodate those differences that we’re talking about, it can hold people back in the workplace, you know, in a role. Or, worst-case scenario, it can cause them to leave the organisation. And that’s, yes, a loss for that person, and it’s a shame for that person, absolutely, but it’s a huge loss for the organisation. So, my message around this is really simple: when people feel included and supported, they do their best work, and everyone benefits. The team benefits, the organisation benefits, society benefits. So it’s not just about fairness, though.
We know from research, like the business case is there, it’s already written. Organisations that embrace neurodiversity, they tend to be more innovative, they’re more adaptable, they’re more productive, and they’re more sustainable over the long term. So diverse teams just make better decisions because they’re not all thinking the same. So it’s not just the right thing to do from my perspective, it’s the really, really smart thing to do.
Jacqui Butler (14:59): Hmm, absolutely. It’s proper diversity, isn’t it? Like, not diversity for ticking boxes or for what it looks like. It’s actually inviting everyone to have a seat at the table and then making sure that every voice is heard so that we are getting those differences.
Kate Hardiman (15:14): There’s nothing tokenistic about it. We know that a combination of neurodivergent and neurotypical teams outperform any other configuration. So, if you are recruiting to your own likeness…Just, I mean, it’s pretty simple to grasp. You’re going to be limited in terms of the pool of new ideas that you’re going to get. There’s no innovation in a team that all thinks the same. You’re going to be in this echo chamber of the same ideas going around and around, and wondering why you’re not moving forward or wondering why you’re not making an impact or being competitive or growing your market share. It just makes sense: the more diverse thinking you bring into your team and your organisation, the more you’re going to be ahead of the curve.
Jacqui Butler (15:57):Absolutely, and maybe that’s a nice little opportunity for reflection for leaders to just sort of pause and go, how do I recruit? Do I avoid recruiting people who feel so different to me? You know, we’re going to do another episode on this because there’s so much… like, this is tip-of-the-iceberg stuff.
Kate Hardiman (16:14): We could just do an episode on unconscious bias in this space.
Jacqui Butler (16:21):Right. And that’s the thing. And I think a lot of the time, I’m not going to ask a question, but I just want to say, I think a lot of the time, we lean on cultural fit, and I’m doing air quotes if you’re listening. But I think we do go, you know, “That person’s not a good cultural fit.” And a lot of the time, that’s because they might be different from who else is already in the team. Your invitation today is...
Kate Hardiman (16:32): Yeah, I’ve been doing that too. Yeah.
Jacqui Butler (16:51): To really question whether you’re utilising cultural fit to create more of a homogenous team.
Kate Hardiman (17:01): Yeah. I feel like cultural fit in air quotes is often a pseudonym for sameness. Recruiting in my own likeness, you know, someone I’m comfortable with. I can see that person, I identify with that person, I feel safe. It’s very primal. And they like the same things as me and they remind me of me. So, let’s recruit them over someone that presents me with a few questions around, “Well, that’s different…”
Jacqui Butler (17:08): Yes, sameness. Kate Hardiman (17:28): Seeing that approach to that problem or that approach to that answer, you know, so I, yeah, it’s a call, it’s a call-out to leaders because leaders set the tone for all of this. If they care about inclusion, the whole team picks up on that. And let’s face it, there’s a good chance leaders already have neurodivergent people in their teams, whether they know it or not. As I said, 20% of the population is neurodivergent – that’s one in five. So, if leaders don’t make their workplaces welcoming and supportive, they’re more than likely missing out on a lot of brilliant contributions. So, you know, it’s about connection. People want to work for leaders who understand them and value them for who they are. And if a leader creates an environment where people feel safe to share their ideas and their difference, allow their difference to actually bubble up to the surface and be obvious... wouldn’t that be a crazy idea?Feel safe enough to ask for what they need, that leader is going to be able to get the best out of that team. They’re going to be optimising everybody in the team, and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want that, really.
Jacqui Butler (18:39): If you have a neurodivergent person in your team right now and you don’t know about it, they haven’t felt comfortable to share. Imagine the amount of energy and cognitive load it is taking for them to conform to a neurotypical workplace.
Kate Hardiman (18:56): It’s exhausting.
Jacqui Butler (18:58): Right? And that’s unfair, but also, that’s a lot of energy that could be used for output.
Kate Hardiman (19:07): It’s huge. I mean, the term for that is masking, and masking has such a detrimental effect on people over time. And can you imagine, neurodivergence – 80% is genetic and it’s lifelong. So, you’ve started off with neurodivergence as a kid, you’ve gone to school, and you’ve had to learn to mimic neurotypical behavior your entire life to fit in because you didn’t want to stand out.
Jacqui Butler (19:10): Amen.
Kate Hardiman (19:33): This happened to my nieces. I observed this, you know, them going into schools, my nephews, you know, over time, you become someone you don’t even relate to. You become someone you don’t know because you’ve had to adopt, or what they call shape-shift, into someone else to fly beneath the radar, to not be seen for your difference, to camouflage your behavior. That, someone described it to me, is like pushing a basketball under the water and holding it there all day, exerting that kind of downward energy on yourself just to get to the start line of your job. So the energy you’re using, you’re expending on that downward pressure of masking and hiding who you are to then just get to the start line of doing your job on a daily basis… exhausting. So it’s no wonder, over time, it leads to anxiety and depression and then potentially burnout.
So, this is... there’s a duty of care organisations have, a positive duty of care to manage this because this can convert into a mental health issue very quickly.
Jacqui Butler (20:45): Hmm. You were speaking earlier, actually, it really reminded me of how important it is as leaders, but also just anyone, to remember that each individual in our team, each individual in a workplace, is an individual human being and approaching them as such. It’s when we have these broad, sweeping blanket decisions or, you know, "this is how we are here" kind of things, kind of directives, I guess, that we have to acknowledge how exclusive that is.
Kate Hardiman (21:23): And how detrimental it is to people. Because it’s not as if people just coast along in an organisation and accept the business norms and conventions and traditions that don’t work for them. You know, sustaining consistent eye contact or shaking hands or working in a really noisy open-plan office environment. All of those things, all of those expectations, wear away at people.
Jacqui Butler (21:25): Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Kate Hardiman (21:48): It’s not just like they coast along and go, “That’s something I have to accept.” There actually is a toll. There’s a cost for that. So that’s, I think, the realisation that managers and organisations need to come to. If they’re not fixing it, they’re actually breaking it.
Jacqui Butler (21:56): Yeah, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. So, let’s give some tools, right? So, first off, I’d love to... I think these terms are used interchangeably, so neurodiversity, neurodivergence, neurodivergent. I think people don’t use the words because they don’t know which one to use. So can you illuminate us? What is the right wording? Yeah.
Kate Hardiman (22:26): Yes, I’m going to try and help. So, I’m going to keep the definitions as simple as possible. So, neurodiversity refers to the natural diversity of human brains and thinking styles. So there is no "normal" brain. So neurodiversity refers to the differences across brains. So I, as an individual, cannot be neurodiverse because I have one brain, but in a class...
Kate Hardiman (23:05): Or a team or a church congregation or a village or a town or a city, there is neurodiversity because there is difference. So think of it in the terms of biodiversity and nature. Just like we need biodiversity in nature for nature to flourish, we need neurodiversity. So difference in brain wiring for the human race to flourish. Okay? So, it’s easy to think about in the context of biodiversity. That’s the reason we don’t have one rose. We have hundreds of different types of roses. We have hundreds of different types of different plants and animals, all working in harmony together. We need that in brains. We go off a cliff as a species because we keep making the same decisions.
Kate Hardiman (23:59): We’re going to narrow ourselves down and render ourselves extinct eventually. So, neurodiversity is just the difference. It’s an umbrella term that describes everyone and it recognises that no two brains work the same way. Neurodivergence… yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jacqui Butler (24:13): Right. Can I just, on that point, I just want to drive home. You work in a neurodiverse workplace. If you go to school, you are in a neurodiverse class. If you’re part of a family or a friend group, there is neurodiversity there. You’re already in it. It’s not a choice is what I’m hearing.
Kate Hardiman (24:22): Correct.
Jacqui Butler (24:22): Correct. We don’t get to say we sit outside it. So, yeah, that’s the reality. More than two people in a room and it’s a neurodiverse room. So, neurodivergence, on the other hand, is when we’re referring to brains that function differently from what’s considered typical. Okay? So, it includes conditions like autism and ADHD and dyslexia and OCD. And there’s many, many more. And a neurodivergent person is someone who has a neurodivergent condition. So for example, I would say my sister’s neurodivergent because she has ADHD. So think of it like this: neurodiversity is the big picture, neurodivergence is a type of difference, and neurodivergent is the person who has that difference. Hopefully that makes sense.
Jacqui Butler (25:28): It does. And so it’s correct and respectful to say that an individual is neurodivergent.
Kate Hardiman (25:37): Yes, if they have a condition that comes under the banner of neurodivergence. So if someone’s got a diagnosis, for example, or even if they don’t have a diagnosis, but they identify as having a neurodivergent condition, they are neurodivergent.
Jacqui Butler (25:42): Okay, great. That is so helpful. Because I do think a lot of people just either say the wrong word or don’t say any words for fear of being wrong.
Kate Hardiman (25:55): Yeah, I would rather them say the wrong word than not say it at all because I think we did this with so many other forms of dimensions of difference. You know, we were all paralysed around the LGBTIQA+ community for ages when we were looking at their initiatives. We were paralysed around First Nations initiatives, you know, in terms of the language there. And now we’re paralysed around neurodiversity language. One of the things I did was develop a glossary of key terms in this space to try and help with that. So I’m aware that people find this a little bit of a tricky space in terms of the language, but the worst thing you can do is just ignore it and avoid it because the conversation doesn’t move forward if we don’t start.
Jacqui Butler (26:50): Yeah. Ignorance is not bliss. And actually, I downloaded your glossary and I found it incredibly helpful. So, what a wonderful thing to put out into the world, free to download. I think it’s a great thing for people to know. It saves you kind of having to Google, how do I refer to this person, or just having everything listed. And actually, there are a few terms or phrases, or terms that I didn’t even realise existed or fell into this sort of bucket. So it was really comprehensive.
Kate Hardiman (27:25): Yeah, great. I’m going to update that over the holidays, so I’ll have 2.0 out next year.
Jacqui Butler (27:30): There you go, watch this space. So, you mentioned a couple of conditions that fall under – now I’m going to really be mindful of my wording – a couple of conditions that fall under the bucket of neurodivergence. You mentioned autism, ADHD, dyslexia, OCD. What are the main ones and can you give us a little bit of a – not so much a definition, but what does it mean? What do these terms mean?
Kate Hardiman (27:59): Yeah, look, the top two, I guess we’ve got a bit of a top two that we are dealing with mostly in the workplace. The first one being autism. So, autism, otherwise referred to as being autistic or autism spectrum disorder or ASD, you’ll find those terms used interchangeably. It means someone whose brain processes things differently.
And it can affect how they communicate. It can affect how they handle social situations. It can also affect how they deal with what we call sensory input. So things like noise and light and smell. Autism is a spectrum, so it’s different for everyone. The experience of someone on the spectrum can be vastly different from the next person with autism. So some people might struggle with things like small talk sustained eye contact, we talked about. Others might just love diving into a topic that they’re passionate about, a special interest that they can just talk about forever and it really lights them up, or they can think in highly visual, pattern-based, or detail-focused types of ways. So, autism – there was a term, Asperger’s syndrome which was used for some time but that’s been taken out of the literature as of 2013 in the, sort of like the book of – it’s called the DSM, the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental health disorders – and that was, sort of, like the gurus’ go-to for science and medicine for diagnosis around these sorts of things, and it was taken out in 2013, so we don’t use it anymore because it’s very confusing.
It’s not separate to autism, it’s under the banner of autism. When we have ADHD, we’re talking about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. But honestly, the name doesn’t do it justice. People with ADHD often have lots of energy, lots of creativity, and a knack for thinking outside the box. So, the name really underplays or is a little bit of a confusing overarching label. A lot of people look at the word, you know, the term ADHD and say, “That doesn’t describe me, so I mustn’t have ADHD,” when in fact there’s more than a hundred ways that ADHD can show up in a person behaviorally. So a lot of people, yeah, have lots of energy or, you know, they might love talking lots, or they might be completely withdrawn. So there’s all sorts of differences in this. The flip side is they might find it hard to keep track of time or focus on things they find boring. And it’s not that they’re being lazy or that they’re forgetful, which is often, unfortunately, how their behaviors can be interpreted. It’s just how their brain’s working. So, the important thing to remember is that everyone’s experience is unique. Autism and ADHD, two of the more well-known examples of neurodivergence, but there are so many others. They all come with their own set of unique challenges and strengths, but I do think I included a few definitions of all of these things in my glossary, so… and there’s just so much information online for people if they’re curious about a particular one.
Jacqui Butler (31:40): Yes, it is included, and I actually really like, first of all, how you described these conditions leading with strengths and what can be so amazing and how information is taken on or assimilated in a different way that can be actually kind of magical and a wonderful thing, you know, a wonderful difference, not necessarily, like we said before, a deficit. And I also wanted to really drive home that it is a spectrum. It is a scale. Because I saw something recently, someone—I think it was on LinkedIn—saying that they were quite proud to have been diagnosed with ADHD. And when they shared that with colleagues, they said, “No, I don’t think you do.” You know, it was…
Kate Hardiman (32:50): Another one I hear is, “That’s really trendy right now.” Isn’t that gross? It’s… other people are going, “No, you don’t. No, you don’t.” Like, as if the journey of neurodivergence isn’t hard enough and then you’ve got to tolerate those kinds of comments from the cheap seats. People who have no idea aren’t informed at all, sort of…
Jacqui Butler (32:54): Ooh, God, that is shocking.
Kate Hardiman (33:18): Casting their own judgment about your situation. You just need to consider yourself deeply honored that someone has felt that they feel safe enough to have disclosed it to you in the first place because the disclosure process and the decision to go there is huge for people, and often they regret it, which is not what we want to be seeing in cultures.
Jacqui Butler (33:40): Absolutely. You know, I've shared this with you and I have shared with a couple of people very close to me that when I look at, you know, what ADHD is and means, I really resonate with a lot of it. A lot of it feels really aligned for me personally. And I shared that with someone who's very close to me who said, no, I don't think you are. And that was it. That was kind of the end of it. And I thought, well, even if I'm not, you've kind of taken away permission for me to be curious and to start to figure out how my brain works. Like it was, and I think that's what we need to be really mindful of. Like you said, it is an honor if someone is sharing something so deep and deeply personal with you, hold that space and honor them. And, and you know, from a coaching perspective, what I would suggest is ask them what they need from you in that moment. How can I support you? Gosh, that sounds like, you know, something, an interesting realisation for you. Would you like to tell me more about it or how can I support you in this moment? And I would have just said, I just, I'd love for you to just listen while I kind of bounce this around. Because that's how I process information. I have to speak, speak to it.
Kate Hardiman (34:53): 100%.
Jacqui Butler (34:55): Yeah, and the irony is that person who said that to you is probably genuinely coming from a place of support. You know, they're, I don't think you have, as in, no, you're perfectly fine by me. You know, I love you or I care about you or you're great. I think you're great. You know, maybe that's where that's coming from, but they have no idea about how deeply destabilising an unsolicited piece of feedback like that can have on them. You know, it's hard, and you're right. I have zero doubt that it came from a place of love but it does kind of speak to this undercurrent of normal abnormal, you're not abnormal don't worry, like that appeasement. So how important is a diagnosis here? Because I know you mentioned earlier, you know, it might affect up to 20% of the population. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Kate Hardiman (35:44): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, look, a diagnosis, it can be really helpful for some people. It has been an incredibly positive thing for people in my family, in my friendship circle. For the most part, it's given them a sense of clarity and it's given them language and a sense of personal agency to be able to explain their experiences, and it's opened up the doors to supports and enhancements, for example, in their workplaces.
Kate Hardiman (36:24): But not everyone has or wants a diagnosis. And the message for me is that's completely OK. Diagnosis can be a really challenging process in Australia right now. So not every psychologist and psychiatrist diagnoses. For the ones that do, there are huge waiting lists at the moment.
The process can take anywhere between three months to two and a half years, depending on where you are located and what type of health care you're accessing. So whether or not you're going private or you're going public and it can cost, and this is staggering to me, anywhere between $500 and nearly $3,000 to get an ADHD. And you know, for instance, my sister got her diagnosis, double diagnosis of ADHD, and it cost her nearly $3,000 and about 14 months to get that double diagnosis. So I can completely understand why people don't go down that road. And I think that's something organisations need to be conscious of when they're designing their accommodations policies or their reasonable adjustments policies or what I like to call enhancement policies. So what I'm seeing is that some organisations are making diagnosis and disclosure a requirement before they allow access to accommodations and supports.
Kate Hardiman (37:56): You know, because if that's, if that's happening in an organisation, they're putting their staff in a very difficult position. You know, we wouldn't ask someone who'd just lost a loved one to provide proof of that loss before allowing them to access compassionate leave, for example. You know, I'd like to see all organisations allowing neurodivergent people to access the support they need without requiring them to go down a very time consuming and costly pathway. What really matters is creating an environment where people feel comfortable asking for what they need, whether or not they have a formal label to put on it.
Jacqui Butler (38:35): And actually in doing that, that also has an impact on the diagnostic process because it takes the burden off of those who are diagnosing. If every single person needs to have a diagnosis in order to have some sort of modification that they need, then people who, you know, whose intervention wouldn't change based on the diagnosis. So they maybe don't need to be medicated. Maybe it's a manageable condition for them. They then come out of that healthcare system, allowing more space and access for those who are in a more dire need and do need it more.
Kate Hardiman (39:23): 100%. I saw this happen when I was working at the College of GPs and they had a policy around requiring people to, you know, like most workplaces, if you have more than three days off sick, you need to go and get a medical certificate. The burden that that was putting on the general practice community was huge. And then the college said, well, this is, we can't demand our staff go and do that because we'd be contributing to the problem we're trying to solve here. So that's exactly what you're saying. You know, free up this huge bottleneck and stop requiring people to come to you with a piece of paper that is a medical endorsement of a neurodivergent condition to then be able to access support that you should be giving them anyway. Because support shouldn't depend on labels. It should depend on compassion and a genuine desire to lead people supportively.
Jacqui Butler (39:53): Hmm. Yeah. That's a good one. Put that in a quote box somewhere on social media, that one. I want to just touch on one thing that you mentioned there, which I have seen and didn't know what it meant. You said, Audi HDA. So this is how we refer to an autism and ADHD co-diagnosis.
Kate Hardiman (40:22): Yeah, sure. It's, how some, some people in the neurodivergent community refer to their double diagnosis. So my sister says that she's an Audi HDA. Just like people say, I'm an ADHD. You might hear that. Not everyone uses that terminology, but it's, it's just like my sister says she's neuro spicy instead of saying neurodivergent. You know, it's just, you'll hear it. Yeah. Audi HDA, ADHD, NDA for neurodivergent person.
Kate Hardiman (41:06): Or ND for neurodiverse or neurodivergent. So yeah, there's a little bit of cute terminology, you know, fun terminology. Lighten the mood.
Jacqui Butler (41:09): Yes, yes, exactly. But also I think it makes it more accessible, right? And for different generations to sort of have sort of slang and more less formal language.
Kate Hardiman (41:26): Yeah, it just allows them to feel like they can, I guess, personalise their experience through using language that they choose.
Jacqui Butler (41:38): Yeah, yeah, it's empowering. So I think you've really covered actually the things that people can take away. What I would love to sort of add to that is how can people find you? How can people learn more or get in touch with you specifically?
Kate Hardiman (41:59): Sure, the two best ways I guess, the website, so unify360.com.au. If people are interested in training that we've run, all of the information is there. So under the banner of inclusive leadership, we talk very much about neurodiversity in the workplace, building awareness for leaders in how to support and optimise neurodivergent talent in the workplace. We also run workshops on inclusive leadership, we run it on emotional intelligence, unconscious bias, critical thinking. So it's all under that banner of how to become organisations where people genuinely want to stay and they thrive because they, they really feel a sense of belonging and being valued. So all of that info is on my website. And then there's also my LinkedIn profile where I, I'm a prolific poster. I post every day. Write articles on all of this and there's a lot of content that people can catch up on and they can also subscribe to my e-newsletter as well. So Kate Hardiman on LinkedIn.
Jacqui Butler (43:05): Amazing. We will make sure that in the caption of this episode, we have links to all of the above and I'm going to add my own personal preference and we will make sure we link your glossary because I think that's a really nice starting point to expand awareness for people. So thank you so much, Kate, and thank you to everyone for listening.
Kate Hardiman (43:17): Please do. Absolutely.
Jacqui Butler (43:28): I hope you've had something really valuable come from this conversation. Don't forget to subscribe and share these episodes so that we really can spread the word and be part of this movement towards more neuro inclusivity. So have a wonderful day and I'll see you next time.
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