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Building workplaces where every individual can thrive requires a deliberate approach and a strong commitment to inclusivity. In Part 2 of this 3-part series on Neurodiversity in the Workplace, I’m once again joined by Kate Hardiman, a passionate advocate for neurodiversity and inclusion.
In this episode, we dive into the challenges neurodivergent individuals often face in conventional work settings and offer practical strategies to create workplaces that are truly inclusive and person-centred. From handling return-to-office policies to prioritising equity over equality, this conversation is filled with valuable insights for leaders striving to make a real difference.
About Kate Hardiman
Kate Hardiman’s journey into diversity, equity, and inclusion, with a focus on neurodiversity, stems from her personal experiences with gender discrimination, burnout, and her own lived-experience of neurodivergence. These experiences inspired her to become a facilitator, consultant, and speaker, helping organisations understand the importance of true inclusivity, and demonstrating how inclusivity benefits both individuals and organisations.
Kate focuses on ensuring workplaces support neurodivergent individuals, developing environments where people feel safe, valued, understood, and empowered.
Connect with Kate:
Website: https://unify360.com.au/
Transcript:
Hi, welcome to part two of our three part series on neurodiversity in the workplace, where I'm again joined by neurodiversity expert, Kate Hardiman, the founder and CEO of Unify 360, a corporate training and consulting company specialising in inclusive leadership. If you haven't already, make sure you go back and listen to part one first, where we break down definitions, and start to talk about some of the key challenges that neurodivergent people experience at work. If you have already listened to part one, without further ado, let's dive into part two.
Jacqui Butler (00:00) I feel like maybe we’ve touched on this, but I want to delve a little deeper because, in my own leadership journey, I have had people who report to me, who have been on my team, and who have wanted or needed modifications to get their job done. I have always accommodated that because I agree with you. I think it’s… I don’t need to know why if…
My job as a leader – one of my favourite definitions of leadership – is that the role of a leader is to create an environment conducive to achieving the best outcomes for each individual and to remove roadblocks. That’s the definition of leadership to me. What do we do in the event that someone doesn’t feel comfortable sharing a diagnosis, perhaps doesn’t have a diagnosis, and, as a leader, we have a suspicion that there might be…
I’m going to use the right term… some neurodivergence at play for particular team members.
Kate Hardiman (01:02) Yeah, look, first I’d say if someone – if there is a diagnosis but someone doesn’t want to share that diagnosis – that’s completely their choice, and it’s really important to respect their privacy. I’d like people to shift the focus. Instead of focusing on the diagnosis itself, focus on creating a team culture where everyone feels safe to talk about what helps them do their best work.
For example, you could say something like: “What can I do to support you?” You may have noticed that person’s performance has changed. For example, you might notice that person is struggling in a particular way. You don’t need – and, in fact, it would never be appropriate – to go up and say, “Are you neurodivergent?” It’s not appropriate.
However, it’s highly appropriate if you’ve got that insight, you’ve seen them struggling with something, to go up and say: “How can I best support you? What can I do to support you? Are there any enhancements that would help you feel more comfortable or productive?” These are the kinds of open and non-invasive questions that don’t require someone to disclose personal information.
If you suspect someone might be neurodivergent but hasn’t said so, just treat them like you treat anyone else – with respect, curiosity, and a willingness to learn and adapt. It’s not appropriate, as I said, to walk up to someone and say, “Hey, are you a First Nations person? Or do you identify as LGBTQIA+?” We wouldn’t do that. Neurodivergency is just another example of a dimension of difference, so we need to treat it exactly the same way.
As leaders, we shouldn’t be looking for opportunities to label. We should be looking to identify where people are struggling so we can help them. That’s as simple as I can make it.
Jacqui Butler (02:37) Hmm. I completely agree with you. I think one nuance to that is, if you’re working with someone who doesn’t have a diagnosis – perhaps they’re early in their journey – they may not know what they need, and that’s okay too. You can work with them. You can lean into a more curious, coaching style of leadership and just test and learn.
Ask: “What do you think might help you in this particular area or with this particular task? Let’s try it out. Let’s check in afterwards and see if that was helpful for you. If it wasn’t, let’s try something else.” Getting expert opinions and guidance can also help to shape those interventions.
Kate Hardiman (03:43) Totally right. The reality is, perhaps you’ve noticed someone struggling with challenges – time management, decision-making, planning, meeting deadlines, whatever it is. You might think, “Okay, maybe that’s a sign of someone with ADHD or autism.” They may not have any awareness that they may be neurodivergent because, you know, let’s take ADHD for example:
Five to seven per cent of people have ADHD, but only 0.2 per cent are diagnosed. So, there’s this huge gap between being neurodivergent and knowing that you are. More often than not, a manager is dealing with someone who may not even recognise that in themselves.
It’s totally inappropriate to have a conversation with someone about neurodivergence. You have the conversation about the challenges they’re facing.
Jacqui Butler (04:18) Wow. Hmm.
Kate Hardiman (04:41) Then you say: “What can I do to help? Is there anything I can provide you with?” If they say, “I have no idea,” you can say: “Let’s work this out together. You’re having a problem with time management – what can I introduce to you? We’ve got these particular time management apps. We can get you an extension on your computer to help you access specific software.” That might be project management software, for example.
We’re not focusing on the diagnosis or potential diagnosis; we’re focusing on the problem and the solution. If the person has zero awareness, we’re just addressing how to overcome that barrier.
Jacqui Butler (05:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. If someone is aware, is diagnosed, and feels comfortable sharing that diagnosis, I want to say this goes without saying – but it doesn’t, which is why I’m saying it – it is not your position to share that diagnosis with anyone else.
I’ve seen this before, where a team member has shared a mental health challenge, something happening outside of work, or a health concern. It is not for you, as their leader, to go and tell HR or other team members.
When a team member asks, “Why is that person allowed to work from home more often than I am?” my answer has always been: “It’s not for me to share that person’s individual circumstances, any more than it would be for me to share yours.” What I need you to know is that I’m acting from a place of equity.
Kate Hardiman (06:30) Yeah, beautiful.
Yeah, and I've taken the time to learn enough to know how that person is best optimised in their job. You know, you're just creating the environment that works for that person to perform at their best. And if that looks different to how someone else achieves their best, then that's perfectly fine. And you don't have to justify that to anyone as a leader.
Jacqui Butler (07:07) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think we just need to lead with compassion and mindfulness.
Kate Hardiman (07:16) Yeah, and see the person.
Jacqui Butler (07:18) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you've mentioned a few examples of needs and behaviours that neurodivergent people might have or demonstrate. Can you kind of dive into that a little bit in terms of, you know, how people might absorb information or how people might communicate differently?
Kate Hardiman (07:45) Sure. They often process information differently. Neurodivergent people often prefer very clear, structured communication. That can often be really important for them. For example, they might prefer written instructions over verbal ones or need extra time to absorb and respond to new information.
I know a lot of neurodivergent people that have problems with working memory. It's part of this thing called executive functioning, which is like the air traffic controller or the conductor of the orchestra that is trying to coordinate all of these moving parts. It's the part of the brain that's responsible for executive functions, for planning, decision-making, time management, and working memory.
So, in a scenario where someone who has ADHD gets instruction from their manager, and that manager says, "I want you to do this, then I want you to do that, and then I would like you to do that as well," the person with ADHD will probably get back to their desk and remember the first thing but not remember the next two because their memory-stacking ability is compromised.
That's why it's such a great idea that if you've given a verbal download to someone with ADHD, you follow that up with a written instruction that backs it up. Just pop off a two-second email that says, "That period of discussion – these are the three things I would love you to do by this time."
I can't stress enough how much deadlines are really important in these situations. So, there's often a communication preference. Find out what that person's preference is. Is it written? Is it verbal? Is it both?
Extra time to absorb information is also helpful. It's also helpful to avoid making assumptions or using vague language. What did I hear the other day? Someone said, "Let's catch up soon." Their manager said, "Let's catch up soon."
Jacqui Butler (09:13) Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate Hardiman (09:43) That just threw the person into a whole range of confusion. You know, what does that mean? So, you need to be specific – be specific about time and, if possible, send a calendar invite so that it's clear.
And please, again, make sure you include a couple of sentences or bullet points in that invitation about what the meeting's for. Otherwise, the person might spend a lot of mental energy wondering what the purpose of the meeting is, and that's going to distract them from their actual work.
So, be patient. Some people might need a little extra time to process questions or feedback, especially in high-pressure situations. There can be different requirements in terms of how people prefer to communicate, how they like to be communicated to, and how they absorb information.
Jacqui Butler (10:38) I think they're such important, tangible things that people can go away and do immediately. Actually, just as you were sharing that, I thought, gosh, so often in leadership coaching, I'll have leaders say, "You know, I'm having trouble with this team member. I've asked them to do something, and they just don't do it, or they haven't done what I've wanted. They haven't met my expectations."
I probably have spent 100 hours just talking about setting expectations because it is something that we can often, as leaders, do on the fly. We have so much assumed knowledge, or we'll think, "Well, they don't need to know the context of this. I just need them to do this one component of this." So, I will just ask them to get that one component.
It's so open to interpretation. Then there's the timeliness of, well, when do you need it?
So, I completely reinforce that idea of making sure that when you ask someone to do something, you follow them up with an email or something in writing.
And I would put in the middle of that, when you've asked someone – when you feel you're setting an expectation – finish that conversation by asking, "What is your understanding of what needs to be done here?" Do a check-in.
Kate Hardiman (12:01) Yeah.
Jacqui Butler (12:04) It doesn't take long, but it will give you such important data in terms of what you have shared and how that relates to what they have taken on.
It also helps the recipient of the information to reinforce that data in their own brain. Then, following it up with an email, as you said: be clear, be explicit. People can't be held to an invisible standard. So, make it transparent.
Kate Hardiman (12:36) Yeah, that's so true. I remember hearing this saying: "What's the most dangerous thing about communication? It's assuming there has been some."
This happens so much. I hear it all the time where a manager has given a directive in a meeting, thinks they've been super clear, and has walked out. Everyone else looks at each other in the room, and they're like, "Did you get that? Are you clear?" And everyone's shaking their head, going, "No."
Jacqui Butler (12:46) Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate Hardiman (13:05) I heard that recently from someone who said they took it upon themselves – they have ADHD – and they went to that manager and actually, you know, took one for the team. They said, "Hey, would you mind if I just clarify what the key outcomes or actions from that meeting were?"
Then they went back to their desk and wrote an email to the rest of the team, who then had it all very clear thanks to that one person with ADHD who had said, "Well, I need this for my benefit. I may as well share it with the rest of the team."
So, yeah, assuming that what you've communicated has landed at the other end is dangerous territory. Always, the idea of checking in and asking people to paraphrase or feeding back to you what they think you've said is such a great tip.
Jacqui Butler (13:50) Yeah, absolutely – for all people as well, right? And, you know, like you said, neurodiversity refers to how everyone's brain behaves differently. Some of us need to take on information in written form. Some can do it just through audio. Some need to have it visually. We need to appeal to all.
Kate Hardiman (13:52) Yes, and giving people multiple ways to engage in communication.
Jacqui Butler (14:23) Yes, yes, exactly. So, we're covering all bases, really. Would you say that that's one of the key challenges that neurodivergent people experience? Is it communication? Are there other challenges that are commonly found?
Kate Hardiman (14:26) Mm-hmm. Meet them where they are.
It is communication. As I said, they often prefer really clear, direct instructions, but workplaces can be full of vague language and a lot of unwritten rules. For example, I heard someone say the other day, "Circle back to me later."
Jacqui Butler (14:58) Yeah, we love a good "circle back" in the workplace.
Kate Hardiman (15:10) Exactly. But it leaves people wondering exactly when and how to follow up.
Another example might be knowing when and how to challenge or question a manager's decision. For instance, I've been in workplaces where challenging a manager's decisions – respectfully – has been encouraged. But I've also worked in places where it was considered unacceptable.
Without clear guidance on what's acceptable in a workplace, navigating hierarchy can be tricky for someone who is neurodivergent and prefers really direct or explicit instructions.
Then there's sensory overload – that's another common issue. Open-plan offices, fluorescent lighting, constant noise, and interruptions are the worst. They can make it really hard for neurodivergent people to concentrate.
There's also the pressure to fit in. We were talking about that before. A lot of neurodivergent folk feel like they have to mask their differences to be accepted, which can be exhausting. Over time, as I mentioned earlier, it can lead to depression and anxiety.
If it's not well managed, it can lead to burnout. And what we're seeing at the moment is so many people – particularly women, unfortunately, over the age of 45 to 50 – burning out.
When they're lost to a business, that's a huge intellectual property loss for an organisation. It can take up to three years for a person who's experienced burnout to be able to get back to work full-time.
So, it's something we want to avoid like the plague. If workplaces can just be more understanding of neurodivergent needs, they're going to get the best out of everyone and prevent those terrible stories from happening.
Jacqui Butler (17:01) Hmm. And I really like that you highlighted sensory overload in particular. I think all of those challenges are important. I think, for me, what I heard was they’re all modifications, like they’re all doable. Like, you know, you didn’t mention that everyone has to speak in Pig Latin or walk around on their hands instead of their feet. It’s not a challenging thing to accommodate.
Kate Hardiman (17:19) Thank you. It’s not rocket science, is it? No, no. Look, if we could just get adjustable lighting into every office – zoned, adjustable lighting – that would be a game changer for neurodivergent folk. If we all just did that one thing, or we all made sure that we had access to quiet spaces or low-stimulation spaces in offices, that would be a game changer as well. It just involves a little bit of modification to an environment and doesn’t have to be ridiculously expensive.
Jacqui Butler (17:53) Hmm. Mm-hmm. And yeah, absolutely. It’s really timely because what we’re finding at the moment is so many workplaces having this drive – many, in many cases, mandated – return to the office. And, you know, for some people that can be a great thing because it does sort of bring people together.
One of – I put out on my social media platforms questions, and I’ve had quite a few come in. One was around someone in a particular workplace wanting everyone to come back to the office and specifically saying, “Not sitting at your desk with noise-cancelling headphones, because we want you back in the office to encourage socialisation.” How does that...?
Kate Hardiman (18:53) Wow.
Jacqui Butler (18:56) I feel like there are 80 questions just within that. But how do we navigate this new, new, new normal around coming into the workplace and making sure that it’s safe for neurodivergent people?
Kate Hardiman (19:09) Yeah, that example amazes me. This idea that workplaces are almost mandating socialisation – you will come in because we want you to socialise. And it just demonstrates, for me, this awareness gap that we’re talking about. It’d be like saying, “You will come in, and you will all use the company gym,” or, “You will join the company singing group.”
While that might be great for some, it’s not going to be great for everyone.
Socialising and making small talk, for some neurodivergent folk, is just – they would rather stick pins in their eyes. It is just not something that some of them want to do. They’re not comfortable doing it. So being required to do it just isn’t compassionate. You know, our objectives as an organisation should be letting people work in ways that help them to be productive.
So, noise-cancelling headphones, for example – game changer for someone who finds an office environment overwhelming from a sensory point of view. It’s not about being antisocial. It’s about creating a balance between what works for the individual and the team. I think, in terms of helping neurotypical people understand this...
Jacqui Butler (20:12) Yeah.
Kate Hardiman (20:30) We need to be having open conversations about why these types of mandates are happening, why these types of accommodations and these enhancements that I’m talking about matter. You could explain that someone using noise-cancelling headphones, for example, is not opting out of a team culture – they’re just managing their sensory input so they can focus and contribute at their best.
I think we need to help neurotypicals understand that, because when they can see these things as a practical need for a person rather than just a preference or someone being treated differently, they’re more likely to be supportive of that.
For a lot of neurodivergent people, returning to the office has been and continues to be really challenging, especially if the environment isn’t designed with their needs in mind. You know, again, open-plan offices, constant interruptions, social expectations – they’re all potential sources of stress and overwhelm for neurodivergent folk.
We learnt during COVID that hybrid work was an absolute blessing for so many neurodivergent folk, because it just allowed them to have more control over their environment. And when you’ve got more control, you can manage your energy better. Being forced back into the office full-time can feel like losing that control, and that’s going to have a downward effect on your productivity and your wellbeing.
So, the key is for organisations to offer flexibility where they can. Let people work from home when they’ve got focus-heavy tasks – things where they really need to shut off from everything else – and let them come into the office when they need to collaborate or when they want to socially connect, if that’s what they want to do.
Jacqui Butler (22:27) And I think it is about putting the emphasis on the output instead of the conformity. Basically, if someone is getting their tasks done, if they’re meeting their KPIs and their objectives, then that should be the focus.
But instead, it’s like, “I want you to do all of those things in a way that’s comfortable for me as a neurotypical person. I want you to do it the way that I do it. And I do it best in a workplace with an open-plan office – headphones off, lots of interruptions and stimulation.”
Yeah, it’s the decision making, isn’t it?
Kate Hardiman (23:11) There’s the unconscious bias again.
Jacqui Butler (23:16) It just demonstrates what happens when we don’t have true diversity in the workplace and we only have neurotypical people making decisions on behalf of the entire workforce. Because then there is that bias where they’re not considered.
Kate Hardiman (23:34) Mm-hmm. It’s so common. It is so common. You know, “I need that process to look like this,” rather than, “I need the outcome to look like this.” So, let’s stop focusing on the journey to get there. Let’s focus on the outcome at the end and let people find their own pathway to that outcome. Because does it really matter if the thing gets done, and it’s to the standard and the quality that you need?
Jacqui Butler (23:45) Yeah.
Kate Hardiman (24:03) Who cares how they get there? They might do it in two days where a neurotypical person takes five days or two weeks. Just because it looks different to how you would do it doesn’t mean it’s not a great outcome. So, we need to stop getting so hung up on how things look and how people get there.
Jacqui Butler (24:10) Mmm. Yes, exactly. And remember that there are fewer neurodiverse people making decisions because our workplaces are not set up for them to progress into the leadership roles that make the decisions. It’s the same as most minority groups, right? Like we have men making decisions for women because they’ve always been men.
And so, they have been more likely to progress into a leadership role. We have neurotypical people making decisions for neurodivergent people because they have been in a workplace that is conducive to how their brain works. Do you know what I mean? We’re perpetuating the problem.
Kate Hardiman (25:12) Although I’m happy to say that there are a lot of neurodivergent folk in leadership positions who I have met. So, you know, we only have to look at Bill Gates, Elon Musk, all of these Mark Zuckerbergs of the world, Jamie Oliver, Robbie Williams, Billie Eilish, Jennifer Aniston – all of these amazingly successful people.
Jacqui Butler (25:21) All right, love that. True, that’s a good point.
Kate Hardiman (25:41)...who have contributed hugely to society and are in leadership roles or powerful positions. It’s just that they have, more often than not, created their own environment to support their neurodivergence.
So, we do see a lot of neurodivergence in the military. We see a lot of it in disaster recovery, in emergency services, in neurosurgery, in law, in accounting. So, there are particular sectors – tech, STEM sectors as well. There are sectors, industries and types of roles that attract neurodivergent people because they outshine others.
Kate Hardiman (26:29) And neurodivergent people make great leaders because they’re unbelievably resilient on top of, a lot of the time, their incredible intellects. So I’m happy to say neurodivergent people are well and truly entrenched in the ranks of leadership. It’s just that a lot of them may not have been comfortable enough to fully embrace that identity yet, but they are there.
Jacqui Butler (26:51) Yes, speak up. If you’re a neurodivergent person in leadership, you tell all your neurotypical colleagues that they need to buck up. Do better, guys – just do better.
Kate Hardiman (27:00) Do better.
Jacqui Butler (27:05) Okay, so with that in mind, with that return to work, and really with any kind of adjusted arrangement or modification for neurodivergent people, what are your thoughts in terms of how we foster a culture of understanding for their neurotypical counterparts, who inevitably will say, “Why does that person get to have that flexible work arrangement and I don’t?” Or, “Okay, well, I would like to have the same work arrangement as that person.” You know what I mean? How do we create that culture of inclusivity?
Kate Hardiman (27:50) Well, I would say – and we sort of hinted at it before – this idea of equity versus equality. You know, equality is giving everyone the same thing. So imagine you’ve got four people: you’ve got a child, you’ve got a disabled person in a wheelchair, you’ve got a tall man, and a short woman, and you give them all the same bike. That’s great you’ve given them all the same thing but it’s not going to work for most of them.
So what you want to be doing is tailoring the bike to the person’s needs. So you’re going to find four different bikes for those four different people. And that is equity. No one starts at the same point on the path as the next person. So we need to take a very person-centred approach to all of this.
When it comes to neurodivergence, you just want to start by being curious. So start by asking questions like, “What do you need to do your best work?” or, “How can I support you better?” You’re not asking about a diagnosis, you’re showing your team members that you’re open to offering enhancements to help them succeed in their job in a way that works best for them, not the next person.
And also, you’re paying attention to their strengths. So someone with autism might do really well in detail-oriented tasks. Someone else with ADHD might bring amazing creativity and energy to brainstorming sessions. So make sure you’re just giving them the opportunity in their jobs to showcase those strengths. You’re getting to know that individual, you’re overlaying that onto their role and their position description, and saying, “How can I set you up for success here?”
Maybe it’s a couple of tweaks to your PD. Maybe it’s taking that thing out and giving it to a person over here who really loves that stuff, and I know that you don’t, so we can pack your job with the things that allow you to really play to your strengths and demonstrate your incredible talents.
You can also create a more inclusive environment by encouraging flexibility. I think flexibility is huge. You know, we got quite used to the hybrid work arrangement, just letting people work out what fits with their energy cycle.
Also, you know, I keep banging on about clear instructions.
That’s going to be a really inclusive thing for someone to do. Offering those quiet workspaces, low-stimulation spaces for them to access at work, and then just asking them, “What’s working for you? What’s not working for you? Do you have any idea about what kinds of tweaks we can help to set you up for success?”
So I think it’s being curious, it’s asking questions, it’s not pretending you have all the answers, but then working in a really collaborative way with that individual to tailor a solution for them.
Jacqui Butler (30:08) Yeah. Well, that's all we have time for for part two of our three part series on neurodiversity in the workplace. I hope you found it incredibly helpful and took away some actions that you can do to increase your inclusive leadership and make sure that your workplace is inclusive for all. Keep an eye out for part three, which will launch in early January, where we conclude this important conversation on inclusive leadership.
Remember you can find Kate at unify360.com.au or via LinkedIn and we'll make sure all of those links are available in the comments below. It's been wonderful spending time with you again today. Enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see you next time.
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