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It’s the final episode of our three-part series on neurodiversity in the workplace! In this episode, I’m once again joined by Kate Hardiman, founder and CEO of Unify 360 and a leading expert in workplace inclusion. Together, we explore actionable strategies for leaders to support neurodivergent team members effectively.
From understanding energy cycles and Spoon Theory to embracing flexibility and curbing task-switching, Kate provides invaluable insights to create inclusive, high-performing teams. Whether you’re managing a neurodiverse team or simply looking to foster a more supportive work environment, this episode offers practical tools and inspiration to lead well.
About Kate Hardiman
Kate Hardiman’s journey into diversity, equity, and inclusion, with a focus on neurodiversity, stems from her personal experiences with gender discrimination, burnout, and her own lived-experience of neurodivergence. These experiences inspired her to become a facilitator, consultant, and speaker, helping organisations understand the importance of true inclusivity, and demonstrating how inclusivity benefits both individuals and organisations.
Kate focuses on ensuring workplaces support neurodivergent individuals, developing environments where people feel safe, valued, understood, and empowered.
Connect with Kate:
Website: https://unify360.com.au/
Transcript:
Jacqui Butler:
Hi, welcome to the final installment, part three of our three part series on neurodiversity in the workplace. If you haven't already, make sure you go back and listen to part one and two, they are best listened to in order. Again, I am joined by the wonderful Kate Hardiman, founder and CEO of Unify360 and expert in neurodiversity in the workplace.
Kate? Let's dive right in.
Kate Hardiman (00:00)
There's a saying in the neurodivergent community that is, if you've met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent person. So just like we wouldn't take a solution for one person with ADHD and just overlay it onto the next person with ADHD, we need to see them as separate individuals, unique in their needs and their amazing talents.
Jacqui Butler (00:07)
So well said, that's like a mic drop moment, isn't it? Like, I think it is really essential that we are seeing each individual as unique. And we do see this as a really broad sort of spectrum and see that neurodiversity does exist within every organisation and within every team. And I really like your message around, “Let's just move away from needing the labels and the diagnosis and the focus on that, and let's move towards, I have this number of people in my team, I'm going to have a conversation with each of them to find out what they need, how can I set them up for success and what obstacles can I remove from them as their leader?” And then you're going to have the most highly productive and high performance team that you can, just by doing those things and seeing people as humans.
Kate Hardiman (01:20)
For sure. I mean, just going into your next one-on-one with that person and saying, “Hey I've been thinking, how do you like to receive feedback? How do you prefer to communicate? How do you prefer to be communicated to? Great, noted.” I mean, just two seconds it takes to ask those three questions and you're already ahead of the game because then you're not flying blind, you're not making it up, you're not imposing your preference.
You're actually able to then empower yourself by tailoring that information to that person in a way that you know is going to land best for them. And at the end of the day, that's potentially going to save you a lot of time in having to chase up this person, you know, be subjected to delays in deadlines being met. You know, it's actually a really self-sustaining thing to do, not just a generous thing to do.
Jacqui Butler (02:11)
Yeah, it's an investment in time upfront. And also it's what you should be doing if you're a leader. I'm very no nonsense about that, Kate. So you mentioned something then that was energy cycles and some of the feedback that came through to me through my social media was how do I support my neurodivergent team members with their energy? And with energy in particular tasks. I never really, I don't, I put my hand up and say, I don't know what you mean by energy cycles. Can you help us to understand that and how as leaders we can use that knowledge to create a better environment?
Kate Hardiman (02:58)
Yeah, for sure. Well, most humans have two energy peaks and two energy troughs a day. That's normally how the human physiology works. So if you think about people who call themselves morning people versus people like me, I'm not a morning person. So if we think about this idea of circadian rhythm, yeah, and peaks and troughs, we all experience some peaks and troughs of energy during the day.
Generally two peaks, two troughs, so I peak in my energy between about ten-thirty and one o'clock, and then I'll feel that fade out and then I'll peak again sort of towards six or seven, so the idea is to get to know your own energy cycles well enough to know that there are better times to be doing particular types of work. So for me I always recommend when you're in a trough of energy, you're doing low order tasks, you're doing admin, you're doing email triaging, you're doing, you know, to do lists, your diary management, whatever. When you want to be in your A game and you're wanting to access that zone of genius in you, that's when you want to be tackling the tough stuff, the stuff that really needs your subject matter expertise, where you need to be really sharp and on, for example. So the idea is that we take that knowledge and we allow people to decide when to plan to tackle particular aspects of their role and allow a person to decide what that is for them, not impose that they have to be doing certain tasks at a certain particular time. Because if you're forcing them to do high order tasks in a low energy trough, you're not going to be optimising the outcome of that task. So how it relates to neurodivergent people, is that neurodivergent people need to manage their energy more vigilantly. So there's this thing called Spoon Theory, and Spoon Theory was this metaphor that this woman in the United States called Christine Misurandino, she was asked by a friend at dinner how she managed her disability. So Christina just went to the drawer, cutlery drawer and grabbed all the spoons and she came back and said, “The typical neurotypical people wake up with almost an endless amount of energy spoons, of energy.”
So it was an analogy for spoonfuls of energy. And she said, “But as a neurodivergent person, I have probably about 12 spoonfuls of energy and I have to be so deliberate about what I allocate these spoonfuls of energy to. Just getting up out of bed and having a shower and getting dressed takes two spoons. Then the commute takes another spoon and then I'm in the office and if someone sends me a meeting invitation and doesn't actually explain what it's about, that takes three spoons of energy because I'm so, I'm having all these intrusive thoughts and negative thinking, you know, narratives about what, so that sucks up all of this mental energy that I have and if I make the wrong decision about what to spend energy on then I'm going to be depleted, I'm going to be out of spoons by two o'clock in the afternoon and then I'm like, not productive at all. And then I start to beat myself up about that.”
So energy for neurodivergent people is a huge deal. So it's great that people are thinking about this. So starting to help them identify which tasks are the most draining and which ones energise them. So for example, if someone finds meetings exhausting, which a lot of neurodivergent people do, and who knows, we have so much of a meeting culture, don't we have meetings about meetings? They might thrive in deep focus work. You could minimise the unnecessary meetings that they're in or let them participate in a written form. Contribute to the outcome of the meeting by a written submission rather than having to be in that meeting and speaking. Also making sure that you're encouraging them to have regular breaks too. Stepping away for a few minutes can help them recharge. A lot of people who are in your audience might know of the Pomodoro Technique. Pomodoro Technique is great for this. This is when you can encourage them to set a timer for 25 minutes and take a five minute break. It's counterintuitive, but what it actually does, it helps someone with ADHD, for example, stay much more engaged and focused. I know this helped a client of mine. He was constantly missing meetings, he'd get into the office, he'd look at his computer clock, you know, 10 to 8, he had a meeting at 9, but he'd get involved in something that really stimulated him and he'd just go down a rabbit hole and then the next time he looked at his clock it was 2.30 in the afternoon, he hadn't had lunch and he'd missed three meetings. So he just implemented the Pomodoro Technique and what that does, it helps him come up for air out of his hyper-focus, “Yeah, okay, I'm checking in, I've got a diary in five minutes, I need to get up and away from my desk and off I go.”
It helps people be much more engaged and focused in their work day. Flexibility is also important for energy cycles, which I think I mentioned, you know, we all have one. So if someone works better at certain times of the day, let them structure their tasks around their natural energy levels whenever that's possible. So that might mean on Tuesday, I'm going to stay home because I need to bash that report out or whatever it is. So just give people the grace of knowing how to fit their work in around their energy cycles because that's going to optimise their performance.
Jacqui Butler (08:49)
And I imagine, I know you've mentioned a few times how critical clear deadlines are. So I imagine that that's part of it. It's not always avoidable, but if you can avoid saying, I need this in the next five minutes, because you might not be in that window of productivity. But if you're able to give someone a realistic deadline that makes, you know, that includes those productive windows, then they're going to be able to manage their workload and manage their tasks accordingly. I know I need to get this done by Friday. So I'm going to, like you said, I'm going to take Thursday, work from home, have no meetings and really sort of allow myself to fall into that level of focus.
Kate Hardiman (09:35)
Yeah. And I know, I accept that it's not always possible, that sometimes things just happen burning platforms, know, urgent, important in the Eisenhower matrix, like top left quadrant needs to be done now. I get it. That's just life. But as your default setting, say, I can give this person an extra runway of time. I can give this person more flexibility. I can sort of push the deadline out a little bit, then that's a compassionate thing to do because that will help that person get it done at a higher level of quality than if you're pushing them to meet a deadline that otherwise might be flexible.
Jacqui Butler (10:13)
Mm-hmm. It just sounds like a really doable strategy as well in terms of you know, working with them to determine when those energy cycles are, training them on time blocking and as you said the Pomodoro Technique so making sure that you are putting the right tasks in the right window kind of, and then one other thing that came up for me when you were sharing that was around minimising task switching and this is something that has become really common, especially as we get everyone back into the workplace where it's normal, you know, I have a question, I need information, I'm just going to go and interrupt that person who is in their deep thinking time, because it's a quick question and it will give me a quick answer. Trying to minimise that, avoid it if we can, I think will really, it sounds like will really help neurodivergent people because they're in focus and once they're out of it, it's broken, you know?
Kate Hardiman (11:15)
I couldn't agree more. It's the, you know from science that if we get an email notification pop up, right? If we're in deep flow and our email pops up, even that little notification, even if we haven't gone into email specifically at that time to look, 17 minutes it takes to get back to the flow that we were in. So what are the chances we don't get an email pop up in the next 17 minutes, you know, highly unlikely. So this is so important to let people stay in flow and particularly neurodivergent folks. Don't, I think there's a, there's an element of self-reflection. Am I being selfish by needing, you know, what's urgent to me? And I'm, you know, I'm going to go and interrupt someone else to get, you know, tick the box for myself, not thinking about the impact that it has on that person as well. So try and batch things like that if you've got a whole bunch of questions and you're, you know, I hate to say it, but brain farting, you know, just get up every time I think I have a thought. It's actually quite inconsiderate to do that to other people. So try and batch questions. So you're only interrupting someone once, maybe book a time in their diary to go and have, you know, even if it's a 10 minute window or a 15 minute window, it's just giving them advance notice so that they can actually prepare for that. And you know, when they're in deep focus, they are more productive than any neurotypical. So why would you want to destroy that for the organisation? Just let them stay there if you possibly can.
Jacqui Butler (12:45)
Yeah, and I think, you know, in terms of the team culture, I used to work for a place where everything was urgent. And I used to, I was like a parrot just saying, okay, if everything's urgent, nothing's urgent, we're going to need a new word because everything, everything can't be urgent. Like it's just standard. And so I think that people who are in a leadership role in particular are able to influence that and have that positive influence in terms of managing timelines, managing flow, managing reactivity, being really strategic with the work that we're doing. And when we do all of those things, we are setting our team members up for success and we're not kind of pulling them in 500 different directions. And that's kind of, you know, a really important function of a leader.
Kate Hardiman (13:32)
For sure, couldn't agree more.
Jacqui Butler (13:36)
What would you say to someone who says, I don't have any neurodivergent team members. So this isn't relevant to me.
Kate Hardiman (13:43)
Yeah, well after I, you know, tried to disguise my little chuckle, I'd say, “Hmm, are you sure? Statistically, it's very unlikely that you don't.” One in five people, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, is neurodivergent. But as I also mentioned, not everyone knows it. So for example, I think I said before, 5 to 7 percent of the population have ADHD but less than 20 percent are diagnosed. So neurodivergence isn't always visible or openly discussed. As we've talked about, some people might not have a formal diagnosis and others might not choose to disclose it because of stigma or fear of being treated differently. And I wish I could say that those fears were unfounded, but unfortunately I hear stories all the time of people making the very difficult decision to disclose but then it's not working out for them. I had that woman call me the other day. She'd been with an organisation for 21 years. She felt like the organisation had her back. She had her ADHD diagnosis for six months. She decided to disclose and then she rang me in tears saying she was being worked out of the organisation. So that needs to change.
But you know, let's humor these people for a second. Let's just say for a minute that your team genuinely doesn't include any neurodivergent members. You still want to be creating an inclusive environment because it benefits everyone. If you're communicating clearly and you're offering flexibility and you're modeling respect for the needs of people, you're a great leader. That's great for everyone.
Plus if your workplace is inclusive, you're more likely to attract amazing talent in the future. There are so many wins to being an inclusive organisation. So catering to neurodivergent folk is just going to make you that kind of organisation and you'll reap the benefits.
Jacqui Butler (15:47)
Yeah, I love that. And like you said, you know, let's not be reactive. Let's not wait until something's on fire or someone's having a hard time before we implement the strategies that you've shared with us today. Let's have a look at our team, have a look at our dynamics and our culture, have a look at how we show up as a leader and see what tweaks and adjustments we can make proactively, as you said, to create this wonderful workplace that everyone thrives in.
And also so that when you do have someone who is maybe more, I don't know if you can say more neurodivergent or has more, you know, adjustment needs, you're already set up and you can really take advantage of the magic that they bring to the team.
Kate Hardiman (16:32)
This so true. It's like this term called “curb cutting.” I don't know if you've heard curb cutting, but back in the day and they were making concrete footpaths. And then they realised for people in a wheelchair, they needed to actually cut the curb down so that people could get up onto the curb. But by doing that for people in a wheelchair, they realised that it was great for women in prams. It was great for people on bicycles. It was like the utility of that small decision was so much broader than what they'd intended or realised in the first place. So when we curb cut into policies and procedures and processes, we're benefiting far more people than the people we originally focused on helping.
Jacqui Butler (17:19)
I love that. Curb cutting. I'm going to share that and claim it as my own. It's a really important example or analogy of what can happen when we're proactive with positive change. Okay, we're coming towards the end. I want to understand what are the don'ts here. So, you know, we've spoken a lot about things that people can do to adjust and tweak and add and implement. What should we not be doing or should we stop doing?
Kate Hardiman (17:52)
Okay, do not make assumptions. Just because someone is neurodivergent doesn't mean you know what they need or how they work best. So take the assumptions out of it and ask, just ask what a person needs. We've got to get our own bias. Got to be aware of our own bias that we bring to these decisions and thought processes. You know, when we see one struggling,so many people with ADHD have been labeled as lazy, right? Or disengaged or whatever. It's not that at all. So we can see a behavior and we can label it and we can make it mean something that it absolutely does not. So taking our assumptions and our bias out and then just going and being, be prepared to, to hear something you didn't anticipate, you know, because the answers are there. And if you're curious enough and you've got a relationship that is psychologically safe with that person then you will probably get the answer you need. I'd also say don't ask outright if someone is neurodivergent unless they bring it up because that can feel really invasive and just put them in a really awkward position. And I'd also just say don't discount or brush off small requests for adjustments or enhancements because what might seem like a really minor request or a small tweak for you, possibly makes a massive difference to somebody else. So, they're three things I would recommend leaders don't do. But I always, when I say the don'ts, I always like to do the dos. And I've got a couple of suggestions. Did you want me to talk to those? All right. What do you do? I think this has come through loud and clear today.
Jacqui Butler (19:28)
Yeah, go for it. What do we do?
Kate Hardiman (19:44)
I think this has come through loud and clear today – communication, really clear so we're trying to avoid really vague instructions and we're trying to follow up verbal chats with a quick email or a written summary and it's just going to help everyone stay on the same page and when we stay on the same page we make less mistakes, we meet deadlines, and we just all work more collaboratively together so that's a no-brainer for me.
I'd also suggest being open to different ways of working. So for example, let people wear headphones in the office, particularly if they're in a noisy office, they're not going to do it because they're checking out, they're actually doing it to concentrate and it will drive the quality and the timeliness of their work up. So just let them go for it.
Flexible hours – I know that for a lot of neurodivergent people, we talk about work from home flexibility, but also flexible hours if someone is going to work better at a different time of the day. I know one organisation I did a workshop for earlier this year, let people negotiate to come into work, work from 10 till 6 because neurodivergent folk really struggle. They use a lot of spoons in the commute. That way this person didn't have to navigate public transport at peak hour. They arrived at the office fresher. They were 20 to 30 percent more productive according to their own guesstimation. So flexibility, just allow people to tailor the way they work with a bit more freedom and trust that they're going to do the right thing by you because 9 times out of 10, they do. And the last thing is, just learn about neurodiversity. Get curious. The more you understand, the better you're going to be able to support your team. And don't be afraid to ask someone what works for them best because it's going to show that you care. And I promise you they are going to absolutely value your interest in them. That's going to tighten that bond. It's going to create the stickiness. It's going to make them feel more psychologically safe. And even if they don't disclose to you now, you're making an investment in that relationship that is going to reap the benefits over time. Perhaps in six months from now they're going to have a meeting with you and tell you that then you're a divergent and then that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for you and your relationship with that person.
Jacqui Butler (22:17)
Amazing. So clear communication, offer flexibility and be curious. I really love that take home, of if you find yourself making an assumption or falling into judgment, catch yourself and ask.
Kate Hardiman (22:33)
Yes and please don't be afraid of getting it wrong. Don't let this perfectionistic idea get in the way of you stepping into that conversation and you starting to use the language. You know if we don't, if we let our fear of what might happen or screwing it up get in the way, we're never going to push this thing forward and we're never going to shift the needle on any of it. So please don't be afraid of getting it wrong.
Jacqui Butler (22:51)
Yeah, absolutely. My husband always says (it's got to be a daily thing for him) “Don't let perfect get in the way of good.” No, be the enemy of good. So you got to just do it, right? You're better to try and learn than to not try at all and just ignore.
Kate Hardiman (23:08)
Yes. Perfect. Yes. Absolutely.
Yeah, every failure is a learning opportunity, right? So let's start making mistakes because we'll end up getting it right.
Jacqui Butler (23:22)
Yes, I love that. Let's start making mistakes. I'm going to write that down on my vision board. Okay, I have a million more questions for you. I have found this conversation so empowering because it is I think a topic that a lot of people don't feel comfortable asking questions around because there's this sense of I should. It's the shoulds right? Like I should know.
Kate Hardiman (23:26)
Hahaha, tyranny of the shoulds.
Jacqui Butler (23:46)
So I am hoping that we can do some more episodes on this. And I'm thinking like, how neurodivergence impacts women in particular, the employee life cycle you mentioned earlier, things around recruitment, onboarding, performance management. There's so many areas that we could do better. So my final and most important question to you is, will you come back?
Kate Hardiman (24:10)
Of course, I would love to. I love these conversations. I'd be more than happy. There's so much to unpack. So as long as your audience is interested, I'm more than happy to come back.
Jacqui Butler:
I can't wait for our next conversation and if you're listening and you have any topics or questions that you would like answered please make sure you comment on this episode or send either Kate or I a DM and we will make sure all of your questions are answered and all of your topics are covered.
Again, a huge thank you to Kate for joining me for this mammoth three-part series and thank you to you all for listening. I truly hope that you were able to get something useful and actionable out of it and it's been an absolute pleasure to learn alongside you. That's it from us. Enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see you next time.
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